Weapon delay and haste - Page 5

Satinah · 09-10-2007, 06:36 AM

What you say is true. It all basically falls into the category of missing swings/delaying fast weapons. I just have a problem when people give credit where its not due like you just did with the 'hard hitting' part. . . you dont parse higher when they hit harder since they also hit slower. . . you parse higher cause you dont miss swings as much cause of CAs period.

Satinah · 09-10-2007, 07:13 AM

If it werent for CAs delay would not be a factor at all, they would all parse the same since weapons are balanced between different delays in every way, technically only quality differs (ratio/DR/stats/effects) and we would all want fast weapons for cacaphony instead so long as they are of same quality. I am not sure why thats so hard to understand.

Hoss · 09-10-2007, 02:51 PM

I've often wondered how much more you actually wind up swinging when you use a 1 sec delay weapon vs a 4 sec delay. By the numbers, you should hit 4X as often. Common sense tells me it will be less than that, but I wonder how much less. 2X? 3X? Has anyone ever tested this? It just seems to me that we might not be missing as many swings as everyone thinks. After all, our CAs have .5sec cast time, and no matter how much you chain them, you can still swing during the recovery period. I wonder if the damage ratio (for better crits) isn't the more important factor.

-h

Jayad · 09-10-2007, 04:37 PM

If you're just standing still behind the mob, and never stunned/dazed it might not matter. But those add up.

Still a really nice weapon with a short delay is better than a long delay good weapon. But all of the really nice weapons have a high delay, it seems.

Hoss · 09-10-2007, 06:16 PM

Well, I'm talking about standing behind a mob chaining my combat arts like I would be doing in a normal situation. There are only a few zones where i get stunned/dazed a lot (I hate fighting those statues in NT throneroom)

-h

Baalkon · 09-11-2007, 01:36 AM

Str is good but if youre at 600-700 or so diminishing returns begins to set in, so while its not the leetest thing to get your dps up with
its not horrible either

crit mods, dps mods and haste mods > str imho

Anarke · 09-19-2007, 03:15 PM

This is a cut of posts I made a long time ago about the subject, all of the information presented below is fact. It details in depth the concepts of crit value (the numbers between MAX+1 and MAX*1.3), crit bonus (how much of a bonus crits give a specific weapon, derived directly from max/min damage ratio), how CA's mesh with weapons, among other things. Read closely and look at the numbers, it should answer everything included in this thread and silence any non-truths. More importantly it will give you an understanding of the concepts involved with weapons and combat, and allow to judge your weapons better in the future. If you have any questions just ask and I'll help you out.

Most people don't understand the difference between max/min damage ratio and delay (which equates to crit value, eg. 4 delay = higher crit value). Delay determines your crit values, with the higher the delay the higher the crit value. However this does not mean that higher delay weapons are better just that they hit harder. Max/min damage ratio gives you a number which represents how much of a bonus MAX+1 crits will give you. The higher your max/min damage ratio the more bonus you recieve from MAX+1 crits therefore the more dps added because of crits. Hence we can deduce that the higher your crit % the more appealing weapons like GDH become over weapons like Vyemm's Fang.

As for the mechanics of how CA's and auto attack mesh I'll try to explain it. Let's say you have a 1 second delay weapon and a 3 second delay weapon. All of your cast times are 2 seconds. Call the weapon with 1 second delay weapon X and the weapon with 3 second delay weapon Y.

Weapon X and Y both begin counting their delay at T=0 (t= time). Assuming no CA's are used at T=60 (1 minute) weapon X will have swung 60 times and Weapon Y 20 times. Now let's assume we are chain casting 2 second kills with .5 second recovery times and that we cast our first CA at T=0 . During the cast all melee weapons are queue'd and swing immediately pending the end of the spell. At T=2 weapon X swings and at T=2.5 our next CA begins before weapon Y swings. At T=4.5 both weapon X and Y swing and at T=5 the next CA begins. At T=7 weapon X swings and at T=7.5 weapon Y swings and the next CA begins. At T=9.5 weapon X swings and at T=10 the next CA begins. At T=12 weapon X and Y swing and at T=12.5 the next CA begins. At T=14.5 weapon X swings and T=15 weapon Y swings and the next CA begins.

Over a minute you will have casted 24 CA's with 48 of the seconds being during an actual cast and the 12 seconds being the recovery times between each cast. Weapon X will have only swung 24 times instead of 60 times or 40% of the original. Weapon Y will have only swung 16 times instead of 20 or 80% of the original. Next just for number's sake lets assume both weapons do 500dps or 30,000 damage a minute. Therefore assuming we chain cast CA's with a casting time of 2 seconds and a recovery time of .5 seconds weapon X will have only done 200dps and weapon Y only 400dps. Over 1 minute weapon Y is now doing 12,000 more damage and over 10 minutes 120,000 more damage. This clearly shows just how much of a benefit higher delay weapons are when you chain cast.

The (CRIT VALUE) is defined as the range between (MAX+1 and MAX*1.3). Any crit your weapon has will fall between this damage range. The amount of dps added because of crits (CRIT BONUS) is determined by the max/min damage ratio. Notice the distinct difference between *CRIT VALUE* and *CRIT BONUS*.

Hoss · 09-19-2007, 04:20 PM

Maybe my memory is faulty, but i coulda swore most of our CAs had .5 second cast times. Doesn't that take away most (if not all) of the advantage of the 3 second weapon in your example? In order for the slower weaps to be advantageous as you describe, we'd have to get our haste up enough so that the fastest weapon was being delayed less than .5 sec .... no? I guess one big question is, what happens at T=1 when the next ca is ready and so is the next swing. I'm betting the swing happens first, then the CA starts. If for no other reason then because you actually started combat with auto-attack swings (which I never do). And if it happens like that, then I'm not sure any swing would ever be missed.

Then there is the question of how repeated stabbing affects this equation. .5 sec cast, .25 second recovery.

<edit> Oh but thanks for running the numbers for me, and showing me how I can at least get a first approximation for myself. I'm still curious if anyone has done any real world tests. Cause there are a couple of things that are hard to approximate. For instance not all of our CA's are .5 sec cast. Eventually we will run out of CAs if we sit there and chain cast long enough (and I think it'll happen in under a minute, won't it?)

-h