40 New AA pts - Page 11

Hoss · 10-20-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raina

Do it at the beginning and work it in whenever you have a break in combat spam. Most of the time you arent standing directly on top of your tank when he pulls so you have to run up to get into range, use your bow on the way in. You can easily go through all your CAs in like 30sec, so there will undoubtedly be small times were you are doing nothing. You should be standing at the very edge of autoattack range (just under 5m) and when theres a break step back, fire off the bow attacks-make sure to wait a split second to get an autoattack, step forward and continue spamming melee CAs.

Use it intuitively. I didnt use my bow attacks a ton, just whenever I had breaks in the combat rotation. The key to assassin DPS is continuous damage and especially with Repeated Stabbing you will have times when you have nothing to cast, thats the best time to use the bow attacks. Not having a top EoF bow hurts the damage potential, but its still good to practice it and its still better than doing nothing. Just like good rangers work in their melee CAs, good assassins should work in their ranged CAs.

OK, so how often do you actually use it? Can you tell what percentage of your total damage the bow attacks (auto and CA) account for? Do you step back appx every 30 seconds? If so, that'd mean you could do it on most trash fights too. Do you?

-h

Azleya · 10-20-2007, 08:56 PM

Hoss, my point is that, contrary to your and other assassins' claims, rangers stand to gain next to nothing from the next 40 AA points. How about, rather than simply label me a whiner, you evaluate my argument based on its merits, which is not something you've effectively done.

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by Hoss

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by Azleya

1. Rangers use melee CA's, not melee auto attack. Using auto melee would interfere with auto bow, thus lowering dps. Don't even suggest that rangers should start using auto melee to take advantage of the hurricane, because that's just a retarded suggestion. Therefore, sta line is currently not a viable option for rangers.

Just as the agi line is worthless for assassins. Yet we don't whine about it.

Well all I'm really doing here is correcting the incorrect assertion that has been made that sta line is usable for rangers. To address your response, though, I agree that agi line is minimally useful (not useless) for assassins. The problem is that, for rangers, there are not 70 points of worthwhile dps AA's in the KoS tree for rangers, whereas there are for assassins.

You label me a whiner for not calculating the dps gains from Perfectionist, but calculating such gains at this point in time would be nonsensical, as Sniper Shot is T6 and never used by me and most other rangers.

I have been under the impression that most assassins take Repeated Stabbing. At the very least, it is a worthwhile ability for them. With the next 20 points, you can either get it if you don't have it or get other dps AA's from the tree if you do have it. That's a lot better than what rangers can do with those next points.

You state that I underestimate the wis line, but ignore the fact that I have done no estimating; I have calculated the dps gain and it is minimal.

Survival line fucking sucks. It is minimally useful for even PVP/solo. The real problem is that it's the second solo/PVP-only line in the ranger tree. Solo/PVP rangers can get well over 70 points of worthwhile AA's for them from that tree, but I can't get 70 points of dps AA's from it because there are too many solo/PVP-only ones. Thus, it's not a matter of fucking solo/PVP fucks, but rather giving raiders some fucking options.

Regarding your last post, rangers already have that hit bonus with current AA's. It's really not that great, honestly, but we're furthermore talking about the next 20 AA's.

Think about the points I'm making before you shoot your fucking mouth off. If anyone who ever pointed out problems and advocated change was simply labeled a whiner and was thus silenced, no one would ever be able to advocate change. Evaluate my argument based on the argument, not some delusional preconception of the people who play rangers.

-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of Strike
Lucan D'Lere

Hoss · 10-20-2007, 09:25 PM

Nosir, later in your post, you whined "Make sta line hurricane work off bow (this really should be done)." The two statements taken together sure make it sound like you think that anything added to the game should help rangers or its useless overpowered garbage.

I actually have no endline eof abilities. Thats how worthless i think they all are. True, with 20 more to spend, i might go ahead and go for RS. I just hadn't done it to date because you pretty much have to burn all the points it takes to get to it. Most assassins probably do already have RS, but for me, I have latency issues in my network that kinda negate any benefit RS would give. I'd much rather have the +5% hit percentage crighton said you guys can get (guess not everyone has it yet).

It would still be 'underestimating' if you simply calculated it wrong out of ignorance. Thats actually what I was implying there, so what was the basis for your calculations? Not everybody knows how to use it properly. I had my best results spamming those 2 stealths and following them up with my dots or my regular non-stealth attacks, and still using concealment to fire off all the stealth attacks. Not 100% sure how a ranger would use it. Right now, i cant even remember if that 8% applies to ranged attacks or melee only.

So, I wish I knew more about ranger CAs, but ar eyou saying sniper shot is the only one that would be affected by perfectionist, and no one uses it? Why do they never use it? If its on that long of a timer, it should do pretty damned good damage, even if it is t6.

-h

Azleya · 10-20-2007, 10:14 PM

It's really a big stretch to take that from the quote you gave. What I'm saying with that quote is essentially that abilities in the Predator tree (at least most of them) should be useful for both rangers and assassins, and that both classes should be able to get 70 points of worthwhile dps AA's from the tree. I do, however, feel that item effects and various classes' buffs also should be made just as usable for rangers as they are for other classes. This is not akin to stating that anything that gets added to the game should help rangers or else it's useless, but rather that items and buffs that help scouts should, in general, help all scouts, rather than all scouts but rangers.

Some rangers do take Conservation over the 5% hit bonus right now, but all that shows is how mediocre both abilities are. The hit bonus is better, but neither is all that great.

The bonus from wis line applies to both melee and bow CA's. I calculated the bonus simply by taking the ZW extdps done by my various stealth CA's, adding them together, and multiplying by 1.08. This is actually probably an overestimation of wis line's bonuses, as I don't think it applies to CA's used out of the 'Shroud' granted by Longblade (ranger Masked Attack), which is what I use to set up a lot of my stealth CA's.

Sniper Shot is not used because it does damage on par if not less than auto bow and takes an extremely long time to cast. Due to the long cast time, it's difficult to avoid having it delay auto bow, not delaying auto bow being essential to ranger dps. Furthermore, stealth breaks very easily and there are bugs in the game that can make it break for no good reason at all. The longer I spend casting in stealth, the more vulnerable I am to having stealth broken and having that cast time wasted. Thus, casting Sniper Shot is pretty pointless atm. Perfectionist affects Sniper Shot and Rain of Arrows. It doesn't make sense to attempt to estimate Perfectionist's benefit on the basis of only one of the CA's it affects. Having said that, Rain of Arrows is not a particularly high parsing CA on a ZW scale. The recast reduction granted by Perfectionist is actually 33% off of base, so bonuses granted from Perfectionist are 1.33*1.15=1.53, or a 53% overall bonuses to dps from those CA's, assuming I take full advantage of the recast reduction, which realistically won't happen. In T8, will 0.53(Rain of Arrows dps + T8 Sniper Shot dps) > T8 Intoxication dps? It's hard to say. If that inequality is true, it won't be by a whole lot, and to get that marginal benefit I'm still going down a line that yields extremely minimal other returns for me.

-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of Strike
Lucan D'Lere

Azleya · 10-20-2007, 10:50 PM

Err, for the wis line bonus, I meant I multiplied by 0.08. 1.08 is a typo.

Ajinia · 10-21-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

OK, so how often do you actually use it? Can you tell what percentage of your total damage the bow attacks (auto and CA) account for? Do you step back appx every 30 seconds? If so, that'd mean you could do it on most trash fights too. Do you?

-h

(I am not a super uber assassin so just laugh at me if you think my DPS sucks lol)

I'm currently using Star Darkened Longbow + field point arrows(Yes yes I don't have T8 ammo =/). AA setup is old school STR + INT build.

On most fights(including trash, of course), I use bow shots under the following 2 conditions:
1. On pull, auto bow shot -> Exacting(if it's up) -> Surveillance -> Cloaked Assault
(Toss an evade before bow shot if you're worried about getting aggro from this. But if you really get aggro, your tank sucks)
2. Auto bow shot -> Assailing Blast -> Concelament chain

As for bow CAs, I don't use them much because I haven't figured out a good timing to use them (laugh again if you want

). I'll go practice more then I guess =/

Here's some numbers from my last FTH and EH 3F trash run:

FTH zonewide w/o Treyloth and Malkonis, 14 fights in total
(Group: Guardian/Templar/Defiler/Dirge/Coercer)
DPS 2,792 / ExtDPS 2,685 / raid DPS about 23k
Crush(bow shot): ExtDPS 84.69, about 3% of total damage

EH 3F trash run, 57 fights in total
(Group: Guardian/Templar/Defiler/Warden/Dirge)
DPS 2,527 / ExtDPS 2,409 / raid DPS about 23k
Crush(bow shot): ExtDPS 47.58, about 2% of total damage

If you can get about 50 or more DPS without losing anything, why not?

Hoss · 10-21-2007, 01:11 AM

Does it do any good to cast elude before you take any aggressive action? Can you have negative hate? I would think all that would do is go ahead and place you on the aggro list with 0 gate. No?

-h

Hoss · 10-21-2007, 01:30 AM

Oh and uh, those 2 times you use the bow shots are very interesting. Never thought of that. I'm assuming that with assailing blast, both shots will put you into stealth. In mmis and EH i noticed a lot of times my first CA after concealment (either cripple or freezing) was missing and therefore not putting me in stealth. Brilliant if thats how it works.

I'll try that combo on pulls next time too. Surveil should be enough to give aggro back to the tank if i pull it. But, i am kinda tired of hearing how my tank must suck balls if i ever draw aggro off of him. I mean c'mon thats BS. if you crit on that bow shot and he's only thrown 1 taunt, i don't see how you wont snag aggro.

-h

Raina · 10-21-2007, 02:08 AM

No using Elude beforehand does nothing, you have to gain hate to negate it.

You forget that rangers already have a very high to hit bonus with there arrows, so 5% doesnt really do anything. Since we dont get that kind of thing +5% would be a big thing to assassins, but to them its of minimal benefit.

His #2 does nothing to concealment since he uses the bow shot before he uses Concealment. Like he said use your dehates if you do get aggro. A tank doesnt normally taunt initially from what I understand, he smacks it with something big, oftentimes his own bow attack because DPS generates way more hate than taunts.

Gonzo · 10-21-2007, 04:41 AM

Yeah, definitely work in Bow shots into your rotation. I don't come into the encounter with a bow generally. I set up with Stealth, run in with cloaked once I see the Tank has gotten Hate. However sometimes stealth is broken and I will either use Ranged or pop off Contrived. I like Contrived alittle better but if I did have a better bow, I would try ranged out and see. I am using Torn Ligament which is decent. Contrived nets me alittle more damage I think but also puts me immediately into melee mode. I get off 2 melee swings before I start my CA race to concealment.

As far as when to use your bow, whenever you need to sustain damage. Timing is pretty important too. Hit Ranged Attack first, instead of just going to a CA. Let the first arrow fire off then time your Ranged CA's in between Bow Shots. If you got Honed Reflexes up, use it. It takes time to perfect it but you can net some nice damage here. I havent quite perfected it to have it go off right everytime but when I do, those DPS downslopes when you aint got a melee CA up is definitely starting to level off and my DPS is improving.

The AGI IMO might not be a bad idea. I'm not saying it will stack up with Surrounding Attacks or Obfuscation but I know crits on Torn Ligament are going for about 2000-2500 damage. Not bad if I can increase Ranged crit to do that more often.

I am still working on perfecting my Ranged use in combat but that is what I have learned and seen so far.