Exessive Bleeding AA= more hate?? - Page 3

Aph! · 12-21-2007, 01:40 PM

correct me if im wrong, but the last time i checked debuffing HP and then doing the same amount of damage as you would when the HP was NOT debuffed would mean faster killing.

examples
~if i use execute and hit for 30k on a mob with 100k hp im doing 30% damage to the mob
~if i use execute and hit for 30k on a mob that HAD 100k hp, but was debuffed 5% (to 95k hp) that same hit is effectively doing ~31.5% damage to the mob

so how exactly is an HP debuff not making something die faster? because last time i checked my abilities werent based on the mobs hp, so the same abilities on less hp=win.

aduros · 12-21-2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

Yes gonzo, EB does affect the amount of damage you do. It DECREASES IT! Re-read what you and a few others have said about it making the mob die faster. It makes the mob die faster by taking away some of its hps. If you keep the debuffs up and knock 200k off of his hps, thats 200k damage that people in your party did not have to do. So bottom line is, EB has no effect on your dps because it shortens the time of the encounter AND lessens the amount of damage done.

I mean, unless you have ADD and can't quite hold it together and keep mashing buttons for the last few seconds of a fight. But thats a personal problem, not a game mechanic. Go see the chaplain about your personal problems, we can't help you here.

There is a reason why we use DPS as our standard rather than total damage done. Its not subject to mathematical trickery.
-h

Wrong. EB will increase your dps. It may decrease the damage you do, but it also decreases the time required to fight. Damage/Time = DPS. Now EB isn't just affecting you, it effects the whole raid. So the decrease in time and damage is not identically proportionate to each other.

Also, the quicker you kill the mob after going through your concealment chain, the greater your DPS will be. Your a self professed 'calculator' so I'm sure you can figure out why.

Hoss · 12-21-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aph!

correct me if im wrong, but the last time i checked debuffing HP and then doing the same amount of damage as you would when the HP was NOT debuffed would mean faster killing.

examples
~if i use execute and hit for 30k on a mob with 100k hp im doing 30% damage to the mob
~if i use execute and hit for 30k on a mob that HAD 100k hp, but was debuffed 5% (to 95k hp) that same hit is effectively doing ~31.5% damage to the mob

so how exactly is an HP debuff not making something die faster? because last time i checked my abilities werent based on the mobs hp, so the same abilities on less hp=win.

Help me out doll, who is making that claim (that the mobs don't go down faster with hp debuffs)? I skimmed over the posts so far and I didn't see it.

-h

Gonzo · 12-21-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

Yes gonzo, EB does affect the amount of damage you do. It DECREASES IT! Re-read what you and a few others have said about it making the mob die faster. It makes the mob die faster by taking away some of its hps. If you keep the debuffs up and knock 200k off of his hps, thats 200k damage that people in your party did not have to do. So bottom line is, EB has no effect on your dps because it shortens the time of the encounter AND lessens the amount of damage done.

-h

No. Because a mob has less health doesn't mean you do less DPS. DPS = damage per second. You can test this out if you want by go kill a solo heroic mob in any instance, check your DPS. Then go do a raid and kill a Epic mob and check your DPS. I hope your DPS is higher on the heroic mob than on the Epic. The Epic has more health and you have to do more damage but the epic takes longer to kill. And remember what I said about EB, when you use a bleeder you still do the same amount of damage with the CA as you would without EB. That doesn't change, only the mobs total health is decreased so your party has to do less damage but YOU still do the same amount of damage. To put simple: less time, same damage.

If that is not clear enough, take Killing Blade. Say on 2 different encounters it hits for 10k yet one fight takes 2 minutes to kill and the other takes 1 minute. In which fight do you think Killing blade has the highest DPS??

Again DPS is the damage done divided by the time it took to kill the mob. So with EB, your DPS is increased. Also it is not a HUGE Boost to DPS, because EB effect diminishes as the fight progresses but it is still time compression even at minimal effect.

Aph! · 12-21-2007, 02:23 PM

Bah I meant dps, my bad on that bit.

EDIT: for clarity, changes in red...

so how exactly is an HP debuff not increasing dps? because last time i checked my abilities werent based on the mobs hp, so the same abilities on less hp=win.

Hoss · 12-21-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Wrong. EB will increase your dps. It may decrease the damage you do, but it also decreases the time required to fight. Damage/Time = DPS. Now EB isn't just affecting you, it effects the whole raid. So the decrease in time and damage is not identically proportionate to each other.

Also, the quicker you kill the mob after going through your concealment chain, the greater your DPS will be. Your a self professed 'calculator' so I'm sure you can figure out why.

Thats right, damage AND time go down, so the number stays the same. Do you not understand that concept? If you do 2000 pts damage in a 2 second fight, then the next time you do 1000 pts of damage in 1 second, the both the time and the amt of damage done went down, but DPS stayed the same. The only way what you are saying could be true would be if debuffing the mob for 3% of its hps made the fight more than 3% shorter. If thats the case, then I'll admit I'm wrong about this, but you will have to show me how you figger that.

Oh and, it does not matter when you do your concealment chain as long as you get it off. If you are saying you run out of CA and are sitting there just swinging away for the last few seconds because all refresh timers are down, well I sure don't have that problem, and as i said before, maybe its a personal problem and you should see the chaplain about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

No. Because a mob has less health doesn't mean you do less DPS. DPS = damage per second. You can test this out if you want by go kill a solo heroic mob in any instance, check your DPS. Then go do a raid and kill a Epic mob and check your DPS. I hope your DPS is higher on the heroic mob than on the Epic.

No, as a matter of fact, I parse much higher in raids against epic content than I do in heroic instances, and soloing is not even close. The only time I get decent DPS in a solo fight is if decap or killing blade is up. Even then its not as much as i do in a raid. Your example is fucking stupid and has nothing to do with anything. I parse higher in raids and groups because I can get to their backs and they are debuffed more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

The Epic has more health and you have to do more damage but the epic takes longer to kill. And remember what I said about EB, when you use a bleeder you still do the same amount of damage with the CA as you would without EB. That doesn't change, only the mobs total health is decreased so your party has to do less damage but YOU still do the same amount of damage. To put simple: less time, same damage.

Jeezuz I've had about enough of your stupidity. I mean, i gave you the benefit of the doubt a lot. I thought you were just ignorant. Now its starting to look more like outright retardation.

You do not do the same amount of damage. Where the fuck do you get this from? If you shave 4 seconds off a fight, that is, at the very fucking least, 2 swings from your weapons that you are no longer doing. In all likelihood, its also 3 or 4 combat arts. Thats more damage that you woulda done if the mob had lived a few seconds longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

If that is not clear enough, take Killing Blade. Say on 2 different encounters it hits for 10k yet one fight takes 2 minutes to kill and the other takes 1 minute. In which fight do you think Killing blade has the highest DPS??

Now its starting to become clear. You must be the worst assassin ever. Because all you do is throw one CA per fight.

Once again, EB will have no net effect on your DPS. Less damage and less seconds tend to even themselves out. You don't take EB looking for DPS gains, you do it to help your raid succeed faster.

If EB were to have any effect on your DPS at all it would probably decrease the ZW because you'd wind up pulling faster. But, the amount of time that gets knocked off of each fight isn't really significant enough for that to be a problem.

-h

aduros · 12-21-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

Oh and, it does not matter when you do your concealment chain as long as you get it off. If you are saying you run out of CA and are sitting there just swinging away for the last few seconds because all refresh timers are down, well I sure don't have that problem, and as i said before, maybe its a personal problem and you should see the chaplain about it.

If you want to know why you gain more dps the quicker you finish the fight after your concealment chain, its easy. Keep you ACT graph running, and see what what happens when you use concealment and watch it the rest of the fight.

Even tho you still have other CAs to spam, nothing will come close to the DPS you put out in those 7 seconds. So the longer the fights drags on after that, the lower your DPS goes until it averages out. DPS is relative. The more DPS your raid is pumping out, the higher your numbers will be.

Take a few days to let that sink in, then get back to me.

Heck · 12-21-2007, 04:50 PM

All EB will do for you is make the fight shorter. It doesn't have any other effect than that in all reality. Do the math.
For example: Lets say your raid is doing 30k dps raid wide. Since EB DOES NOT modify how much damage you do, this would be a constant. Lets also say the mob has 4million hp. So it'd normally take about 133 seconds to kill it. Now lets debuff it's health 4%, effectively dropping it's hp to around 3.8 million. Now you can kill it in about 128 seconds. It just makes for faster fights. It does not increase the damage you do or affect your attack/casting/recovery speed, which are the only things that WILL affect your DPS.

aduros · 12-21-2007, 04:53 PM

~~Double Post~~

aduros · 12-21-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heck

All EB will do for you is make the fight shorter. It doesn't have any other effect than that in all reality. Do the math.
For example: Lets say your raid is doing 30k dps raid wide. Since EB DOES NOT modify how much damage you do, this would be a constant. Lets also say the mob has 4million hp. So it'd normally take about 133 seconds to kill it. Now lets debuff it's health 4%, effectively dropping it's hp to around 3.8 million. Now you can kill it in about 128 seconds. It just makes for faster fights. It does not increase the damage you do or affect your attack/casting/recovery speed, which are the only things that WILL affect your DPS.

You forgot about that other minute factor: TIME