Exessive Bleeding AA= more hate?? - Page 8

aduros · 12-26-2007, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

I am still waiting on the answer to what I thought was a pretty simple question. Are you saying that you get higher DPS if you hit the concealment chain at the end of a fight, versus doing it at the beginning? Cause that's sure as hell what it looks like you said.

I'm sure to your average chimpanzee, thats what it looked like I said. If your still unable to connect the dots, follow my advice and look at the graph. If after looking at your graph and sensing my condescending tone you still don't realize the answer to your question, your a Dumbass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

I dunno why I'm even asking you stuff like this. Aren't you retired?

Unless there has been some game altering change to the Assassin class a few weeks after launch, I still know what I'm talking about when I comment on these boards. Besides, I retired from raiding, not my Assassin all together.

You of all people should realize that length play has nothing to do with knowledge of your class. You've been playing an Assassin for how long now, and your still garbage.

P.S Forgive me for clipping out your cornball responses, and getting straight to the point. 1 copy is bad enough as is, no need to duplicate it via quotes.

Heck · 12-27-2007, 02:58 AM

So lets do the actual math on this instead of all the theoretical bs. There's a lot that could go into it if you want. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to throw out crits of any sort. I think we can all agree also that if there is indeed a DPS gain by EB then it would only be evident in the very begining of the fight. I'm making this assumption because as a fight drags on, your DPS will drop from this initial spike and start to plateau (this has at least been my experience for the most part, maybe I'm just horrible :P ). So I stopped my analysis after the concealment chain of spells that would cause that initial DPS spike. I'm also going to assume we're fighting an epic. We can change this if you want. So the maximum hp debuff would be 5%. The values I took for the damage/cast/recovery are from my assassin, with poise spec'd. I've also based the damaged needed to kill the mob with EB going on where ever the highest DPS output was and backed my way to the non-EB hp. I'm also going to assume a normal distribution on the damage ranges for each CA, i don't know if this is the actual case, i'm just running with it.

Anyways.....right or wrong, here's my analytical analysis of it. Looks like you have a .008% chance of having a DPS high enough that you wouldn't be able to get the same result without EB. Take it for what you will. If you have something better or see something I missed, step up to the plate and I'll adjust the calculations accordingly. I'm not perfect and it's late. Later

Heck

Carbajal · 12-29-2007, 10:14 PM

Wow, you spent way too much time on this, but your own numbers (if I'm reading your spreadsheet correctly) prove the point.

But before I get into that, I have to say this. The benefit of EB is not increased personal dps. Read that three times. The benefit of EB is that the mobs die faster because they have less HP. A side effect of that is your personal dps will go up slightly over if you did not have EB. The key word there is slightly. I can't believe this discussion has dragged on this long about such a miniscule effect.

On to your spreadsheet. Assuming the mob's max health is 36146 (from your spreadsheet) and the debuffed health is 34425 (again from your spreadsheet).

I'm just going to look at your max damage numbers, since your minimum damage numbers don't go long enough to kill the mob and you didn't list the average numbers, which is what I would've used.

Without EB, you killed the mob in 5.95s and did 36731 damage. With EB, you killed the mob in 5.36s and did 34425 damage.

36731/5.95s=6173dps
34425/5.36s=6422dps

All those numbers are straight from your spreadsheet. So with EB, you did about 249 more dps.

These numbers are all skewed though. First, you assumed 5% less health when in reality you won't get that. That would make the dps difference less. Second, you have a fight that lasts less than 6s. I know you said you did that on purpose, but that's not going to give "normal" results. Third, I used the max damage numbers when average damage would have given a more realistic result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heck

I think we can all agree also that if there is indeed a DPS gain by EB then it would only be evident in the very begining of the fight. I'm making this assumption because as a fight drags on, your DPS will drop from this initial spike and start to plateau

Huh? The dps difference will be more consistent the longer the fight drags on, for the very reason you said. We spike, and then plateau.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heck

Anyways.....right or wrong, here's my analytical analysis of it. Looks like you have a .008% chance of having a DPS high enough that you wouldn't be able to get the same result without EB.

Huh? There is no "chance". Take the same damn fight and see how long it would take to kill the mob with and without EB. Don't look at two seperate fights, which is what I think you're still trying to do.

Read icefire's example again. I'll even quote it for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

Assume we have a 100 second fight. Say:

a) You're ACTUALLY doing 1000 damage each second. That's 1000 DPS.
b) You're doing 100000 damage in 1 second, then 0 damage for the next 99 seconds. That's also 1000 DPS.

Right, so, now let's take Bleeding into account. Now the fight is going to be 2% (? can't remember exact values) shorter, i.e. 98 seconds. This time:

a) You're doing 1000 damage each second, so in those 98 seconds you'll have done 98000 damage, so 1000 DPS.
b) You're doing 100000 damage in 1 second, then 0 damage for the next 97 seconds. Now you've done 1020 DPS.

Carbajal · 12-29-2007, 10:24 PM

Just for the hell of it, here's the numbers using the minimum damage you listed. Assuming mobs max health is 25k, which is as high as the minimum damage goes up. Assuming the health is debuffed 3%, which makes it 24,250.

It takes 6.74s to kill it w/o EB doing 25115 damage, and 6.57s to kill it w/ EB doing 24755 damage.

25115/6.74s=3726 dps
24755/6.57s=3767 dps

So with EB your dps would have gone up a whole 41 points.

Skratt · 12-31-2007, 04:30 AM

the real maxim is 4% cause mark never lasts in raid...but that said... think i have fixed my aggro problem bu smoothing my dps over a longer period... instead of trying to cram dps in the start hehehe

aduros · 12-31-2007, 09:30 AM

The issue could be your MT, or group setup they use for him. If your running deaggro poisons, and using baffle ect. aggro shouldn't be too much of an issue. Smoothing out damage over longer periods sounds like it would have a negative effect on your dps.

Our brig would always Dipatch about 1-2 seconds into the fight, and at first aggro bounced around sometimes with our new MT. But once he got used to how we raided, he made a few adjustments and we could all go balls to the wall, without the mob so much as twitching. Getting aggro in RoK sucks, it's not like before were u could take a few hits while you try to dump it back

Gonzo · 12-31-2007, 10:44 AM

I agree the issue isn't EB and you shouldn't have to change what you are doing unless your just being careless. If you play well and your grabbing aggro early, the problem is rooted somewhere else. Ask any good tank, we're not the aggro stealers. They have more complaints about Brigs and Warlocks than Assassins.

Our MT parses between 3.5-4k and I will hit (on trash for EXTREME example) over 8k and still do not rip. Thats with Concealment => Fatal Followup finishing somewhere between 10 to 15 seconds into the fight. Our group setup is usually Guard, Warden, Dirge, Coercer, Mystic and Me. So you and your guild might want to figure out why you are pulling aggro because having an Assassin back-off doesn't help you or the raid.

Skratt · 01-02-2008, 03:47 AM

naw but when u start to burst over 10k and your MT has a hit rate of arround 20% cause mob is orange you WILL pull it off MT.....

Not caring about yellow mobs where mt hit rates are decent... its those damn oranges

And yes as a ratonga you CAN survive pulling it off mt if you got plea keyed into a 4th mouse key

if you get it off quick

Gonzo · 01-02-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skratt

naw but when u start to burst over 10k and your MT has a hit rate of arround 20% cause mob is orange you WILL pull it off MT.....

Of course, but to stay on topic. It's not EB getting you hate, it's the difference between your DPS and the tanks ability to gain hate. 20% is pretty low, I would try to fix that if possible. I know it's orange but at that rate, it's gonna be a really tough fight for you and any other DPS. Maybe some aren't debuffing?? Some Scouts and Healers can debuff AGI and Deflection/Parry Skills while Dirges and Wardens can improve Melee Skills on the tank.