Delium

So this is a topic that has been debated quite a bit on WW as we all know. Their seem to be two sides the "MC > all" and the "CA dmg in many cases is better" side.

Most people seem to favor MC while I tend to agree with Gaige (Saying that scares me) that CA actually gives you higher all round dps.

What are really the advantages of each however? Whats the mathamatical trade off for how much CA = 1 MC? I know this is different for each person based on other things such as Str, Weapon, Skill lvl (ad3/M1) etc etc. Yet, a close approximation for myself seems to be about 25 or so CA for 1 MC. Are the rest of you finding it about the same? Generally?

MC Advantages -

1. Its a % increase. Any % increase has the potential to scale extremely well and much better then any flat modifier such as CA Dmg. The 30% or Max + 1 from a crit will lead to much higher spikes in DPS then a flat modifier like CA dmg.

2.Crit is also readily available and easy to attain on much of the higher end gear, while +CA is often lacking. Sitting in the 50's unbuffed Crit wise is not a hard thing to do. While getting to even 500 CA seems next to impossible without really sacrificing.

3. Crit effects all swings. It effects our CA damage as well as our Auto attack damage. This can be argued may actually lead to a higher sustained rate of dps, yet from my parsing it still seems that CA gives you higher sustained dps even though it effects roughly only 70% of our damage (obviously no effect on Autoattack damage).


So MC will give you a higher burst dps, is much easier to attain, effects the full range of our damage and as a % modifier will only increase in potentcy as gear increases.

What about CA damage? Why does it seem to parse so well?

Advantages -

No matter how much I would think that Crit would give a higher sustained dps it doesn't. +CA wins. CA is a flat modifier which effects obviously only our combat arts. Yet, having as little as 300 CA damage seems to be a signficant boost in dps. +CA effects the highest portion of our dps the most, as such it seems to be a significant boost.

Disadvantages - Harder to obtain/does not effect Autoattack damage.

Some quick Math. Over a 1 minute period what could CA possibly net you if you are chaining abilities.

Velium Strike x1
Crippling Strike x1
Slate x1
Stealthed Assault x1
Mortal blade x1
Jugular slice x1
Killing blow x1
Execute x1
Master Strike x1
Death blow x1
Deadly Impale x2
Gushing wound x2
Scarring blow x4
Masked Strike/Pinpoint x4

So you are talking roughly 22 CA's over a 60 second span. Yes, its a rough estimate and you could depending on latency and such fluctuate between 1-3 in either direction if you are just spamming with Poise + RS which most of us have. I'm also trying to get a read on the increase so no haste was used. Adding in things like haste is going to skew the numbers in favor of

But for the sake of this example we will use 22. Simply then assuming no outside buffs you are looking at 22 x 300 = 6600 extra damage from CA's. The cap is at best a very minimal issue for us so is not taken into account especially since we are using only 300 CA damage.

6600 extra damage over 60 seconds equates to 110 extra dps. So in the most simplistic of terms 300 CA damage can add as much as 110dps if all abilties are up.

Thats a pretty substanial gain 110 dps. How much crit does it take for you to gain the same amount of dps over a 60 second span?

That is much harder to isolate due to the fact that crit is a percentage and not a flat modifier.


In parsing 2 items which seem to be debated quite a bit, the Sarnak Utility belt and the Energised Protectors Shackle.


Sarnak is giving you 2 MC 1 DA and 10 CA dmg vs the Shackle which is 65 CA dmg. Popular consensus seems to be that the Sarnak belt is better, yet in the comparisons i've done of the both the Shackle wins by quite a bit.

This was already covered in a previous thread to a small degree, but no consensus has actually been reached. Its a matter of opinion still.

Another example of this that got me thinking about this whole thing was the discussion in WW about the differences between the Unailling Shoulderpads of Zheng'tcho and the Field Commanders Mantle.

Now you have the case of 4 MC vs 35 CA dmg? I do not have the shoulders from Chel so can't parse them out, but I saw Gaige saying that the 35 CA dmg was parsing higher then the 4 MC. Has anyone else found that to be the case? 4MC is a hell of alot of crit, and if 35 CA dmg is still showing to be even slightly superior then all the math would appear to be off and CA may really be > all at this time.

What have you guys all found out about the 2. What do you prefer and why? It would appear that MC is better due to the high dmg spreads in our ca's + the fact that it effects auto attack damage and is a percent increase, yet CA dmg in direct comparisons seems to me to be parsing higher.

Has anyone else encountered this?

Gaige

The Chelsith shoulders have 2 atk speed, 2 crt and 30 ca dmg. So you're losing 2 crit for 2 atk speed and 30 ca, oh and you lose some int.

That is why I think they're better.

Also this is a good topic, but not one I'm sure we'll ever come to a consensus on.

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Maelya

Considering our CA damage is more difficult to obtain than MC, and apparently the cap is pretty high I am leaning towards running with more CA damage gear. My MC unbuffed is running at about 50% from memory. Plus our epic weapon seems to proc the extra 8% MC all the time from what I am noticing.

With that being said, I'm outparsing another assassin in my guild with similar gear and AA choices as mine. I'm wearing the Sarnak belt and he is wearing the energised protector's shackle with a +30 CA dmg adornment. I won the shackle just a few days ago, so I'm going to test it out and see how my parse changes.

I think if we look at this in the most simple terms possible we might be able to make some headway. 1% MC = X CA dmg.

Once we work out what they equate, perhaps we could then look at the differences purely in numbers.

NephtysSK

I was looking at this the other day with a +2 crit item and checking damages on Deadly Impale and Execute. +2 melee crit equated to ~ 3 CA damage on Deadly Impale and ~30 on Execute.

Really I think the idea here is where your MC is at. 50% self buffed is fairly good, and I think that once you're that high you can kind of start looking at pieces that maybe have no MC/CA on them and start replacing them with items that HAVE +CA on them....while still keeping the MC. So this way, you have a nice sort of balance.

I don't have the protector's shackle to parse (hasn't dropped yet for us) nor do I have either of the shoulders (again, the issue with not dropping) so I can't really parse the comparison. However, looking at JUST numbers I'd say the Shackle is far better than the Utility Belt.

Basically looking at the numbers (with those previously listed) the Utility Belt has what around 40CA dmg on it (with the 2 MC...and this is the high end). The double attack is essentially useless anyway (it is only 1).
So if you're comparing items only on CA damage, the shackle has more, that and the stats are better anyway.


blah blah blah i got sidetracked and forgot my point.

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icKx

So if what you're all saying is true, and +CA is much better than anyone previously thought - to the point where some feel the Chelsith shoulders are better than the Field Commander Mantle. Well then I have to ask: How does the Reet Helm now stack up against the Manipulator Hood (4mc & 4da)?
I realize that the Reet is based on a proc, but it seems to proc quite often and +150 ca is nothing to scoff at.
If 2mc and +35 ca > 4mc then I'd think that +30 ca (+180 proc'd) might hold up against 4mc and 4da (unimportant).
I realize this comparison has been discussed before in ww, but with our class's gear emphasis starting to shift from exclusively MC to a higher inclusion of +CA gear might this need to be reevaluated? I don't have the Manipulator Hood yet so I can't myself, but has anyone parsed it vs. the Reet Helm?
Thanks.

k9quaint

Correct me if I am wrong, but MC also affects CA dmg, thus +CA dmg is also modified by how much MC you have. There is a maximum point past which adding MC will give you no added benefit (100% only attainable in theory afaik). There is also some value of +CA which is better than +1 MC when you have +99MC already. The DPS curve for MC is a continuous function, thus, the value of adding MC is dependent on how much +CA you have. The benefit of +CA is going to vary according to whether you have adept III or Master I. Stats & AA also play a role.


To sum up: I dunno, just wear stuff that looks cool and stab the people who complain about DPS

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Gonzo

MC AND +CA Damage FTW!

Delium

I think, the end goal for myself is going to be to try to amass as close to 500 CA damage as possible while retaining crit percentage close to 60 unbuffed. If you can get near that 70% crit percent buffed and have 500 CA dmg (which should be doable with current gear) I think that would be the best mix for overall dps.

Its definitely an interesting point and one that actually has merit as opposed to the DA/MC conversation.

What is everyone sitting at MC/CA wise? Unbuffed i'm at 52% MC and 305 CA currently.

Gaige

54% MC and 370 CA currently.

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Catseyes

so if i m correct, a slot with 1MC +50 CA , would be better than 2MC ?

As i cant get the trooper boots atm, i have choice between the daredevil thread and the sandals of focus ,and sticked on the daredevil (1 mc,50 Ca )

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