Sudden

OK. I'm not at home so can't get all the total combat arts and damage numbers for the most accurate comparison. So, instead I will use the number you provided above as a quick demonstration.

Now follow close, and understand alot of this is going to be based on assumptions.

Say a swash has 15 ca's each ca hits for 100dmg
and a brig has say the same number of ca's, 15, but we all know they hit harder. So lets say based on your example of dispatched and lung bleed about 25% harder. so the brig's 15 ca's hit for 125dmg each.

Following so far?

You add a 10% to all 15 for the swash. that would be a total of +150dmg if you cast each one once.

Now add 30% to just 4 of the brigs. that would be a total of +150dmg or 8% increase.

swash
100 x 15 = 1500 + 10% = 1650 total dmg increase---> duh 10%

brig 125 x 15 = 1875
125 x 11 = 1375
162.5 x 4 = 650 (30% increase)
---------------
2025 total dmg increase of 8%



While the brigand still does more ca damage then the swash, the increase is actually not the same. keep in mind this is just an example of how 10% to all is a greater increase then 30% to 4. This does not take into account the other variables in each class, which all in all shouldn't matter since this is only pertaining to combat arts. Cast times, self buffs, gear and any other variable will remain the same so they really have zero bearing on this.

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Orochan

Whine to get your epic upgraded then, stop trying to compare it to swashies, because neither rogue epics are worth the mythical tags they have.

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Orochan

Lung bleed destroys a mobs ability to hit successfully, is the swashies best debuff, and arguably the best offensive debuff in the game.

Dispatch destroys a mobs ability to mitigate damage successfully, is the brigands best debuff, and is arguably the best defensive debuff in the game.

I'd say they are pretty much polar opposites of each other.

Also Kidney and side stab are both available to upgrade to master 2, and both are on a 10 second recast. I matched up perfectly comparable CA's with the only difference being lung bleed is on a 30 second recast, while dispatch is not. The rest of your factors have jack shit to do with what I was comparing ( which is straight damage spreads )

LMAO @ is it an AE fight or not, obviously any swash worth a shit will out dps a brig on an AE fight, but it's not because of our CA's dumbass. Read up on hurricane.

Read above. Again I took 4 very similar abilities and compared them.




Faster recast low damage CA's will out dps the slower recast high damage CA's the longer the fight is, that's all there is too it.

Example :

CA #1 hits for 1000, 1 min recast.

CA #2 hits for 600, 30 sec recast

Fight last 50 secs, CA #1 wins, fight last 1 min and 10 secs, CA# 2 wins.






Relativity is the single worst mistake you can make when comparing in this game. It's the same as giving 100% haste to two different weapons, relatively they both get the same amount of haste ( 100% ) but the slower weapon gets more advantage of the haste then faster weapon does, why? Because taking 100% off of 4 secs is always more then 100% off of 1 second. Always.

so no 10% of 100 does not equal 10% of 1000, especially when considering most trash mobs do not last long enough for dispatch to be casted twice.




So your arguing that your raid utility which effects the whole raid, is somehow less desirable then our CA bonus which only effects us? I think you need to learn what it means to be a brigand.

Seriously, to you and all the brigands crying for more DPS just stfu and roll an assassin. Brigands are utility, now am I pissed that SOE made essentially a cap on our utility? ( diminishing returns, etc etc )

Hell yes, but the answer is not more dps, the answer is fixing the diminishing returns curve/game mechanics so we don't reach that cap so fucking easily.


I was and still am a better brigand then you can ever hope to be, stop trying to act like your someone on these boards, it's unbecoming.

Also I would like to note that swashies have always been more dps oriented then brigs, so it actually makes sense to give the better dps bonus to the swash epic, and the better debuff bonus to the brig epic, and that's exactly what you guys are bitching about, that swashies got better a dps bonus.

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Pinski

Fixed. Please, learn how to play this game before talking. Taking away skills from a mob does jack shit.

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How many times do you hear it? It goes on all day long
Everyone knows everything And no one's ever wrong
Until later...
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But apart from a few good friends We don't take anything on faith
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Orochan

Oh I know what it doesn't do, but that's whats its supposed to do. I should've clarified more, but next time don't be so quick to judge

Edit : Also if by some chance I actually thought lung bleed effected mob hit rates, it still doesn't make my whole post wrong, it just makes that particular part wrong. Flawed logic ftl sir.

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firamas

seriously... dude... please... you fail at basic math skills. halving the delay (100% haste) on ANY weapon will cause it to do twice as much autoattack damage, with no other factors considered. somehow in that poorly educated mind of yours, when a slow weapon's delay gets 2.0 sec cut off each swing, that's a better deal than the extremely fast weapon getting 0.5 sec cut off each swing. IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME.


FFS can someone add up all the [max dmg/recast] numbers for both rogue CA sets and post it here, this entire argument is pointless when we have people like Orochan around. i feel like i'm in a retard slapfight with a 5th grader who was held back in his math classes for 4 years straight.

Orochan

Basic math doesn't exactly apply to this game.

When comparing weapons you either include all factors that happen in a live situation or your gonna get a flawed result. For instance the claim your making now, is false, because in a live setting, no rogue just ever auto attacks, we are for the most part constantly casting CA's, and it is by casting Ca's that slower weapons out dps faster weapons ( among other factors like higher max damage, etc etc )

So if your weapon is too fast, you are by default, delaying your auto attack more and more because your Ca's are getting in the way of your autos, and thus missing more auto attacks then a slow weapon would.

If it truly was the same, then everyone wouldn't be using 4 sec delay weapons all the time.

This same logic holds true for this % based bonus to CA's.

If the fight is short ( like most trash fights ) then it is safe to assume that your 30% bonus will perform better then our 10% bonus, even tho our 10% bonus applies to all Ca's. h/e on named fights or fights that are considered long, then you will see the 10% bonus win in the end, because it starts catching up to the burst dps the 30% did.

Let's use real numbers.

Kidney stab master 2 = 983 - 1175 ( 10% bonus makes it 1081 - 1292 )

Side stab master 1 = 967 - 1433 ( with 10% bonus makes it 1063 - 1576 )

Now again RELATIVELY ( which is what your trying to say ) they both get an increased bonus of 10%, but because the brigand CA already has a better spread then the swash CA , the brigand CA gets more benefit out of the 10% then the swashy one does.

So the swashy CA increased in damage by 98 - 117.

The brigand CA increased in damage by 96 - 143.

The brigand CA got 24 more damage out of the 10% bonus, then the swashy CA did.



What I'm trying to prove is the 10% bonus, while effecting every CA, is not going to perform as good as people are saying it will because swashies have low damage CA's ( compared to brigands ) to begin with. So our Ca's do not take advantage of that 10% as good as brigands take advantage of their 30% bonus, even though it only effects 4 CA's.
This is also why assassins love + CA mods, because of their high damage CA's they benefit far more then rogues do from + CA mods.



This is just giving both Ca's a 10% bonus, h/e if you really want a write up on the 4 CA's that receive the 30% bonus then PM me with your str and CA damage values and I'll see what I can do, to give a more accurate result.

( This goes for any brigand, I would appreciate it very much if you sent me a PM listing the stuff I asked for above )

Btw, next time try to actually respond instead of just throwing around half thought up insults.

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lyasa

are the numbers your quoting from brig and swash in same + ca gear, same + str gear, etc? i wanna know cause i don't want skewed redults.

another thing i'd like to know, does the +30% to back attacks apply to doubled up skills? for instance, if i double up dispatched, will it also do +30% or will it not effect it since double up is not a rear only attack?

Orochan

Yes. I hate any kind of skewed result too, and strive to give equal settings to both things I'm trying to compare.

You'd hafta ask yabor on that one, however if double up does indeed apply the 30% bonus, that effectively makes it 7 CA's ( since i doubt anyone can double up 4 ca's w/o extreme casting speed help given to them ) that net the 30% bonus, thus narrowing the margin.

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firamas

double up simply repeats the last 2 seconds of completed CA's (i.e. with sailwind and very low latency it can be a "triple up" since you chain CA's every 0.8 sec and will have completed 3 CA's). the double up itself is irrelevant, it just instantly recasts those CA's, and they'll receive any bonuses that the original 3 did. if your last CA cast in that chain just prior to doubling up is Dispatch, for instance, the repeated CA's will all benefit from the mitigation redux that's now on the mob.