Havoc, Mythical Suggestions / Comments - Consolidation Thread

[Nalvest]

This thread is to consolidate the tons of comments made about the mythical havoc across the forums - in hopes to get this fixed. Please add your own comments, quotes or whatever.

Everything has been quoted as it was written, typos included, in an effort to keep it genuine. In some cases quotes may have been snipped to only include the relevant part of the post - but all are linked to the original post.

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Havoc
Recap of Abilities:

+10% to debuffs
+30% CA damage to rear only combat arts
2.4 times / minute, 12 second proc: -20 Attack Speed debuff, +40 Attack Speed Buff, 547-821 Piercing damage

(I didn't include the rest, because as is posted below every melee class basically got the weapon except for the effects)

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Suggestions:

Originally Posted by Yobor

Remove the 3 above effects.

1. Give us a modifier to dispatch that does 1 or more of the following (instead of the +10% to profession)
1: +100% spell/melle/ranged hitrate while dispatched is on
2: 100% of spells/melee/ranged crits while dispatched is on
3: 100% of all items/abillities proc while dispatched is in
This is the type of stuff brigs would drool over and would be totally in line with our class function (raid dps buffers) and the other mythical effects people are getting.

2. Give us some sort of Autoattack modifier(instead of the +30% to 4 cas), the effect on the assassin weapon is straight off of a PM i sent in when I was asked for feedback on the brigand item, I can't even begin to tell you all how frustrated I am that my idea ended up on the assassin weapon. I personally think they should remove the autoattack buff from the assassin weapon and put it on both rogue weapons, rogues have always been the king of scout autoattack dps. Assassins have always derived their dps from CA's, to replace the autoattack effect, the assassin item should get 12% chance to "double up" a stealthed CA. This would make everyone happy.

3. If the +40 haste -20haste went over and above the caps, it would be godly and a good effect. If thats not possible, evern +40dps -20dps would be marginally better for most people. +40dps -20dps over and above the caps would be truely awesome and excite every single brig game wide. I'd also be interested in some sort of effect that would actually lower raid mob dmg output similar to the swash tswipe modifer. Perhaps we can get some sort of debuff that makes the tank more difficult to hit? Something that *actually* effectively lowers raid mob dps output.

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

Well, we're defensive debuffers, there are plenty of things they could do... I'd kill to be able to drop even a short term debuff onto a mob like what the monks have on their epic, but something that would benefit the whole raid...

Something like 8 sec on proc, 5% chance for incoming damage (to mob) to ignore defensive checks or to get a second defensive check reroll on failure.

Originally Posted by Snooze

While I'd gladly take any Dps procs, I doubt we have any chance to get anything out of SoE!

Heck, I even would have been more happy with any mod to AR! (either proc rate, duration or both).
Or something to drastically lower a mobs avoidance, somthing BIG which could help the raid vs high con mobs!

Originally Posted by Rhymez

Yobors Idea with adding a 100% hit effect(100% hits for everyone in the raid for 24sec) attached to Dispatched would make the weapon useful along with a percentage based multiple auto attack hit proc
we still rely more on auto attack dps than an Assassin and also aint almost on par like it used to be in EoF , so they shouldnt get a auto attack based proc , they should get a ca based one ca multi attack for them , auto multi attack for us

Originally Posted by Yobor

I was looking at the swash traumatic swipe modifier and realized that this is basically a similar end effect that people are asking for and won't ever get. Perhaps we could ask for either -15% to all ae's added to an existing debuff spell (like the thrust line), or -25% added as the proc effect to the weapon (my preference, you can get a better % when it's not going to be on 100% of the time). Perhaps we can get the physical mit portion since the swashies have the magical version or something like that.

Originally Posted by Nalvest

Suggestions for changes - trying to stay in theme with the original weapon:

Effect 1: Caster has a 15% chance to have their primary weapon's Autoattack strike multiple times

Effect 2:
Dispatched gains the follow raid wide effect:

* +25% Spell, Melee, Ranged Crit
* +25% Item / Ability Proc rate
* +25% Hit rate


Effect 3: 2.4 times / minute, 12 second proc: Reduces target's physical damage by 15%, 547-821 Piercing damage

Originally Posted by lyasa

i'd be cool with the damage proc being "reduces target's chance to double attack by 10%, increases caster's chance to double attack by 20%" (edit- 5% debuff, 10% buff on fabled version)

i don' think there's a double attack debuff in game yet and this might be a decent way to add one.

also something that actually effects one of our class skills might be nice, instead of a generic boost to debuffs. perhaps it could grant a 100% to hit bonus for anything used on target of dispatch (100% harder to resist as well)? something that is "wow, that's nice" instead of "30% to damage, 10% to debuff"

Originally Posted by lyasa

ok. maybe we can have the 50% strikethrough added to dispatch? i dunno. but lets have something unique added to our weapon, instead of the generics.

(edit- a 100% hit bonus does not guarantee a hit either, but a greatly increased chance to hit)

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

Honestly, MY AR is worthless right now, let alone raid-wide or group-wide AR. More and more mobs are dragging out aoes that cannot be blocked by AR. I've counted at least 3 so far this expansion, and that's not including a single avatar, who probably are the same way. Strikethrough is more reasonable, and more fitting with our class, because we're defensive debuffers. Short duration (8 secs?), 5% chance, sits on the mob for anyone in the raid to use during that duration... sounds like a plan.

Originally Posted by TheEasternking

what id like would be scrap 10% to all debuffs and add 30sec reduction to recast of Dispatched and make it immune to j cap.
Brigands are supposed to cripple a mobs defensive abilitys..and dispatched is out sig CA.
So with 5 peices youd have 24secs every 30 dispatched, that would make it a signature weapon for brigands imo.

Originally Posted by rozzyroz

I would like to see something along the lines of what the guardian epic has that would disregard the offhand restrictions of our aa abilities in place of the haste/dehaste effect it has now.

Originally Posted by Tholar

to bring something truely epic (and not go over the top), they should double the proc chance on avast ye for us, thats a 5 to 8% dps increase (which other classes get aswell) and dispatch to the said effect (+ to hitrate, proc chance, crit chance).

could even make that avast ye proc increase for swashies too, so it's comparable like the summoner epics (each one with a new pet).

Originally Posted by Rambo

1, give du +2 seconds
2, +10/20% to ar
3, striketrough from monk mytichal

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Comments on Current:

Originally Posted by Yobor

Our epic definately leaves some to be desired.
I've now had a chance to raid with it and I can tell you we do not gain anywhere near the raid dps as other classes and our epic effects are not noticable.

1. 30% DPS Improvement on 4 of 20 CA's. Less than a few % on the zonewide.
2. +40 haste, -20 haste on mob. Does nothing, tonight i was sitting at 408 haste in raid, haste is without question the easiest thing to buff in a raid setting. And -haste is perhaps the only thing easier. 1 Brig skill and a poison proc caps out -haste, and like 6 other classes get -haste debuffs.
3. Improves profession debuffs by 10%. This effectively does nothing that I can see. I checked the parse, and no one is hitting noticably harder than they did last week (granted I do have master1 dispatched). My feeling is mit debuffs curve and therefore this does almost nothing. The only good thing about this that wasn't immediately apparent to me is it also effects stuff like -defense.

I am actually really happy with the spread and stats, SOE totally got this right, but the effects are horrible.

Originally Posted by Yobor

its painfully obvious how short this falls of the other class epics. Other classes have improved their zonewides by a factor of 20-35%, some of which have gained utility to boot.
BOTH ROGUE CLASSES GOT COMPLETELY JACKED ON THEIR MYTHICAL EPIC. Which one of us gained 4% zw vs. which one of us gained 3% zw is completely irrellelevent imo. The bigger issue is the fact that we pretty much gained zero utility and very little dps.

Originally Posted by TheEasternking

Its pretty simple, i will use it b/cos of the spread / crit potential.
But this weapon is supposed to be class defining, and above all things the most desirable thing to obtain for each class, and its not making me sweat in excitement waiting to get it. its pretty mediocre and im pretty indifferent to it, and that and that alone tells me the dev responsible for it has failed with his design. But i am very excited at the thought of getting the guard epic for my old main....go figure.

Originally Posted by valadil

the brigand epic has absolutly NOTHING on it that makes me go OMFG I WANT THAT SO BADLY!!! the dmg spread and crit bonus/DA bonus is nice and will make a good dps increase - however EVERY single effect on that weapon = lame compaired to other epics out there. if i can find a better weapon (dps wise) off an avatar/trak i'd use it, and thats just sad.

Originally Posted by firamas

Yobor hit the nail right on the head (and he's not the only one so far in this thread)... the majority of effects on our epic are nearly useless due to hard caps on debuffs, diminishing returns curves, or arguably broken mechanics on the effect itself.

**SELF HASTE: Every single raiding brig capable of getting their mythical epic is (or should be unless the raid leader hates them) sitting close to or over the hard cap for haste. Sometimes WAY over, as Yobor commented.
**HASTE DEBUFF: Haste and DPS debuffs cap at -50%. We can cap that ourselves, with our single CA that debuffs it + turgurs poison. And there are half a dozen other classes that can dehaste a mob, which leads to the question... WHY?
**10% TO ALL DEBUFF: Brigands are there on raids for the huge mitigation debuffs. The other stuff is just incidental, and is done just as well or better by other classes. With mitigation debuffs capped at 200% Damage Taken on a mob (reachable quite easily), this ability is very close to useless.
**IMPROVED BACK ATTACKS: Affects only half of our actual rear CA's, since the others are tagged "flanking or back" and don't get the benefit. Seriously, uh, why?

Originally Posted by Paperclip

I agree that it does lack a "good" class defining ability. That is why Yobor's Dispatched idea is perfect. I'm a proponent for the devs taking a look at the weapon again and adding that ability (or something similar).

Originally Posted by Kicks

I agree with Paperclip. The weapon is ok and I am therefore content with it. It is not class defining, as others like dirges or guardian ones are and I would be happy if there would be an effect as Yobor already pointed out with his dispatched idea.
But what I expected, though SOE described the epics as THE weapons, was a weapon that was superior to the Myliex dagger that obviously is contested loot.
That's not the case. In fact it is better. It also might be the best scout melee weapon ingame.
The effects on the weapon are not in any way near the ones on the guardian dirge or illy weapon and I think there is some room for improvement, but the weapon seems to be better than contested loot, which is more than I had expected and that leaves me at least be content with this thing.

Originally Posted by Nalvest

I've already posted on this a few times before - but just to put in my 2 cents quickly

I completely agree with Yobor, the mythical version needs to be changed.

I'd love to see some of his suggestions implemented; it would be nice to see some class defining stuff on the weapon - like most of the other classes. I really feel the devs were very lazy with our weapon and just threw on some shit they felt was *useful* without thinking about it.

It's probably the best weapon I will get this expansion; but, when I look at the other classes mythicals it bugs me that we got the shaft.

Originally Posted by Sudden

I'm not gonna lie, its not as uber as I thought. Once I got to thinking about things and seeing some of the other Mythical epics with group procs and raid procs added I started hoping that was the reason behind our AR proc nerf, as much as some would hate to see it, having AR proc group wide would pwn. Alas, that is not the case. I guess it could be worse. The overall dmg looks good, and the +10% to debuffs is nice. I'll have to try out the +30% to backstabs to see if thats worth a damn, but I'm thinkin it's... bleh.

Originally Posted by firamas

Again, let me use brigands as an example. I don't have to actually have the weapon to see that the proc is effectively useless. A 20% dehaste on a mob that's already miles past the -50% cap? A 40% self haste when, due to the bard+illy support core of any decent melee dps group on raids, I'm so far through the diminishing returns curve that it doesnt matter anyway? (Not to mention that caco will be raidwide, negating the need to really have the dirge in my group anyway). I've easily hit 300+ haste on a raid before. When only 200 of that is even counted, and that number results in the 125% actual final haste, you can probably understand why 40% self haste isn't really making any raiding brig excited? Am I supposed to be excited that I'll have a bit more self haste in a crappily thrown together heroic instance group now?

What about our 10% to all debuffs? Debuffed dmg to a mob caps at 200% of normal damage... a figure which is easily reached as long as every debuffer is doing their job in the normal course of things. Again, am I supposed to be excited that I might be able to cap this in heroic instances now or something?

Originally Posted by TheEasternking

ok everyone is happy with the basics of there mythical ..ie stats / damage spread / crit / db attack
where there is issues is the actual effects on them for example brigands :
30% to backstabs...only works on 4 ca's ..it nets no noticeable difference on a zw parse for the class...therefore its a WEAK and pretty worthless effect
20 haste of a mob and 40 haste for brig, brigs alone without this effect nearly hit the cap on debuffing mobs haste, never mind the other 6class's in a raid that debuff haste, giving us 40 haste again does no noticeable bonus to ZW dps, this again makes it a shitty worthless effect
10% to all debuffs. brigands got the ability in eof to increase nearly every single debuff we have by 10% or more ..some upto 40% more, and on raids there was no noticeable increase in over all raid performance..ie no one was dps'ing that much more. the brig's werent dps'ing more, people were not hitting anymore when brigs were using there new 40% increased debuff to parry and defense. So the brigs purchased aa respecs and spent them else where b/cos they were absolutely worthless, and now they add 10% on our epic, guess what ..it still does fuck all

So yes brigands will use there weapons b/cos of melee crit db attack and crit range is best wpn by far so far, but its completely dire when it comes to the other parts that are supposed to make it epic and us slaver at the though of actually owning it. im more looking forwards to getting my guard alt his mythical than i am my main. that means the dev who created the brigand epic has failed on at least 50% of his design.
hope that is somewhat clearer for you now.

They could have done any number of things to make the brigands go WOW that weren't massive dps boosting things, they chose mediocre effects that do nothing..just like the majority of our EoF AA ability's.

Originally Posted by TheEasternking

i get more haste from a t3 clicky ability than i do from my mythical wpn proc
recast 2.5mins with j cap for 112seconds 44 haste
proc 4-5 times for in 2.5mins 50-62 secs 40 haste.

its not good enough to be classed as EPIC.

Originally Posted by firamas

Have you been on a raid lately? Do you understand how COMPLETELY USELESS 40% haste is to any melee scout? Any DPS melee on a raid nowadays is so far into the diminishing returns curve on haste that you could put a +200% haste proc on it and it still wouldn't mean jack shit. Here's a clue for you, since you don't understand game mechanics:

125% listed haste ~ 100% actual haste
200% listed haste = 125% actual haste <--- **HARD CAP**

I regularly run between 200-250 haste on raids, and I tend to get pretty mediocre groups. Yobor, the guy who WW disco'd the brigand mythical, posted that in his raid group he was up to 400+ haste. The HARD CAP IS 200. YOU SEE ZERO RETURNS AFTER THAT. Do you now understand why brigands might be pissed about this effect being on our weapon? We aren't using this shit when solo or fucking around with dipshit heroic content, anyone capable of killing the new VP dragons for their epics is a FULL TIME raider and likely spends 98%+ of their time engaged with EPICS, not random casual content. These weapons are intended to defeat the hardest tier of raid content, not jumpstart your e-peen while running around Jarsath Wastes soloing nameds when you're bored. When the devs dont understand this, or the mechanics of raid content, and put useless effects like this on our weapons, we rightfully get PISSED.

Oh, and our "backstab buffer" affects 4 CA's total. Half of our backstabs. The others are listed as "behind or flanking" instead of just "behind", and currently are not receiving the bonus.

The 10% increase to our debuffs is also severely marginalized by current soft and hardcaps. In short, everything currently listed on the "effects" portion of our mythical epic is a disappointment to the entire brigand community.

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Comparisons:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

Seriously folks, stop bringing up that it's the "best melee weapon we can get". Strip it to the damage numbers and delay and it's the exact same basic weapon as every scout and fighter gets. Some have slightly different delays, but every melee component part of these weapons is IDENTICAL in terms of scale. They all have 120.9 DR and all have damage spreads that correspond appropriately to the delay to make this DR hit.

SO, what does that let you do? It effectively removes the weapon damage range OUT OF THE EQUATION when looking at the weapons. All classes that melee have this on equal terms. You HAVE to look at buffs to look at this weapon, and that is where the primary complaint comes from. Why should everyone else get things that are so much better for both their class and the raid as a whole compared to what we get?

What? They shouldn't? Oh right, our weapon really isn't that good. This is why people need to stop saying it's okay, because it's not. It's not like we got MORE damage in the weapon stats to compensate for the shitty buffs. We got the exact same base template, and then got fucked in the plug-in parts.

Originally Posted by Tuna

Assassins get a 30% dmg increase to all their stealth combat arts, a chance to get their wep auto-attack "multiple times" and a proc that gives em 15% melee crit.
Wizards get 10% dmg increase to ALL their fucking spells, a 10% chance to SPELL DOUBLE-ATTACK....

Originally Posted by firamas

With classes like assassins getting jesus-like effects (proccing a flurry of 3-5 additional melee swings), wizards getting 10% base damage AND 10% SPELL DOUBLE ATTACK (both of which are not affected by ANY kind of curve and are straight up huge zonewide DPS boosts), warriors getting massive self DPS boosts, etc, etc, etc... you have to keep asking yourself... whats so epic about our epic? We're stuck with a bunch of marginally useful shit because the person who designed this item apparently designed it in a vacuum separate from every other epic, and also doesn't understand the mechanics of buffs and debuffs. If you possess this weapon you aren't using it to solo or some dumb shit like that, you are very likely an exclusively-raiding subscriber. /epic sigh

Originally Posted by Tholar

we got shafted since eof start (aa tree beeing crap, AR beeing nerfed to a luck skill [dont get me wrong there a nerf was due, but what lockeye did was just destroying the skill], now the mythical weapon improving just 4 combat arts by 30%?)...

yet swashbucklers have some really desireable things in their eof tree, hurricane wasnt nerfed, their mythical beats us (not much but still does), so why arent we allowed to moan when you already moan about your proc beeing shit (which infact is 60% of the time up and maybe even more with some more haste), your CA's getting improved by 10%, the TS thing is kinda a meh-thing but still quite good and making you just as utility as us. and the only thing which makes us really t2 dps atm (even if all the tier dps thinking died long ago or should have) are buffs. solo we are pretty crap atm compared to swashbucklers.

and to all devs reading this: I DONT WANT ANY EPIC NERFED! boost the others to something usefull, give us the "WOW"-effect other classes experienced when they saw their mythical weapon. Mythicals should be the be all end all weapons in this game, so why nerf them?

Originally Posted by firamas

And why shouldn't a brigand, for instance, be disappointed that the absolute ACME of weapons available to their class, the one item that's supposedly entwined more with the "feel" and the lore of that class, doesn't even feel epic compared to many other classes? Am I supposed to be happy that I have a 120DR weapon with a purple Mythical Tag and some melee dps stats on it? Oh, wait, every other melee has that as a baseline too...

Originally Posted by Cheddar

The problem is not that some epics are actually crap, its that some of the epics for certain classes are so good that it kills off classes who are of the same ilk.

Guardian weapon is a perfect example, guards were essentially the best tanks before epics, now however with epics available guards are the ONLY choice for highend raiding.

I also think the assasin weapon is just stupidly overpowered compared to similar classes. Yes thats a whine, but come on, anyone who doesnt think that assasin weapon is going to push them way out infront of similar classes is deluded.

[Yobor]

Thank you for consolidating this.

I had started to type this out in the other thread, but I'll add it here instead.

I was thinking earlier about some of my earlier suggestions and felt I could expand on them a little bit, so here goes.

It seems the general consensus is a lot of people want a raidwide AR. My personal opinion is that won't ever happen, AR is constantly being nerfed, I don't see its use being expanded in any way. I was looking at the swash traumatic swipe modifier and realized that this is basically a similar end effect that people are asking for and won't ever get. Perhaps we could ask for either -15% to all ae's added to an existing debuff spell (like the thrust line), or -25% added as the proc effect to the weapon (my preference, you can get a better % when it's not going to be on 100% of the time). Perhaps we can get the physical mit portion since the swashies have the magical version or something like that.

Swashes should also get the -15% true hitrate as a proc on their weapon like i discussed earlier in my other post (page 9 on the other mythical thread).

[Nalvest]

Suggestions for changes - trying to stay in theme with the original weapon:


Effect 1: Caster has a 15% chance to have their primary weapon's Autoattack strike multiple times

Effect 2:
Dispatched gains the follow raid wide effect:

• +25% Spell, Melee, Ranged Crit
• +25% Item / Ability Proc rate
• +25% Hit rate

Effect 3: 2.4 times / minute, 12 second proc: Reduces target's physical damage by 15%, 547-821 Piercing damage

[lyasa]

i'd be cool with the damage proc being "reduces target's chance to double attack by 10%, increases caster's chance to double attack by 20%" (edit- 5% debuff, 10% buff on fabled version)

i don' think there's a double attack debuff in game yet and this might be a decent way to add one.

also something that actually effects one of our class skills might be nice, instead of a generic boost to debuffs. perhaps it could grant a 100% to hit bonus for anything used on target of dispatch (100% harder to resist as well)? something that is "wow, that's nice" instead of "30% to damage, 10% to debuff"

[Rhymez]

Necromancer Ooze pet debuffs double attack chance

I personally want the multi attack proc as one effect
and the rest can be debuff related

100% hitrates for the whole raid when dispatched or Compromising thrust is up was one of the best suggestions from Yobor

[Mendanbar]

I find it hard to believe you guys can keep throwing around that 100% hit rates thing with a straight face. That would be so unbelievably game imbalancing that it's not even funny.

Dispatched, with ONE brig with his set bonus is up for 24 seconds. Two brigs and that's nearly a full minute of 100% hit rates... every minute... can't you see the IMMENSE problem with that?

[lyasa]

ok. maybe we can have the 50% strikethrough added to dispatch? i dunno. but lets have something unique added to our weapon, instead of the generics.

(edit- a 100% hit bonus does not guarantee a hit either, but a greatly increased chance to hit)

[Nalvest]

I agree that 100% hit rate will never happen; which is why I suggested +25% to hit.. even that may be too high.

Debuffing Double Attack is a possibility... Honestly though I think we are asking for as much as we can in the hopes we get any of it

Oh and I meant to mention it before - raid wide AR will never happen... MAYBE group wide, but even that is pushing it.

[Mendanbar]

Honestly, MY AR is worthless right now, let alone raid-wide or group-wide AR. More and more mobs are dragging out aoes that cannot be blocked by AR. I've counted at least 3 so far this expansion, and that's not including a single avatar, who probably are the same way. Strikethrough is more reasonable, and more fitting with our class, because we're defensive debuffers. Short duration (8 secs?), 5% chance, sits on the mob for anyone in the raid to use during that duration... sounds like a plan.

Debuffing double attack isn't really our M.O., we're defensive debuffers as I just said above, not offensive. This would be something way better for swashes to add to their PoS.

[TheEasternking]

what id like would be scrap 10% to all debuffs and add 30sec reduction to recast of Dispatched and make it immune to j cap.
Brigands are supposed to cripple a mobs defensive abilitys..and dispatched is out sig CA.
So with 5 peices youd have 24secs every 30 dispatched, that would make it a signature weapon for brigands imo.