crit > doubleattack > +ca dmg - Page 2

Mendanbar · 04-29-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tholar

would rather have confirmed about crits, where is the hard cap. because afaik, you can have more than 100% crit, just like you can have 600 slash skills, but hardcaps at 520, same as crit cap out at 100% but scale to the mob's lvl (100% crit is about 66% on a lvl 86/87 mob).

ppl might wonder then why 100% heal crit still produces 100% critted heals even when fighting lvl87ish mobs. only stuff which affects the incomming/outgoing to/from the mob scales with its level, meaning dmg incomming, skills used to attack, or outgoing dmg like resists, mitigation, parry/defense skills.

would be nice to get some clarification now tho, as i am quite confused.

Heals just aren't affected because they don't have anything to do with the mob. Damage spells and melee crits obviously are attempting to do something to the mob on the other hand.

Tholar · 04-29-2008, 11:32 PM

i know that, thats what i said, and thats what makes me think crits cap out at 100% :S

Yobor · 04-29-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chix

Not saying you made a false statement, but a bit fuzzy and potentially misleading.

If someone is sitting at say 80% crit, getting 5% crit more will have less impact on their DPS than someone who went from 30% to 35%. The biggest impact you can get from 5% crit is if you had zero to begin with, and conversely, the smallest possible impact would be 95% -> 100% (against even con). Of course, by "impact" I mean the percentage-based increase in DPS.

The more you have of a particular DPS mod (crit, dbl attack etc), the lesser the gains from boosting it further becomes - even if it increases linearly. If for example crits are better than double-attack when you have zero of both, there might come a point (after you've built up your crit rate) where more double attack now is the most beneficial stat.

Again, not claiming you said anything contrary to what I just added, I just feel it's another view of same thing that everybody should take into consideration.

Not trying to flat out call you wrong, and maybe we're arguing over semantics here...but I believe you're making it seem like going from 75-80 crit vs. 5-10 crit somehow diminishes the value of crit in comparison to the other stats. This is simply not true, the crit gain is completely linear. 5crit is 5crit as long as you're below the cap and don't have crit proc items which push you above the cap. Double attack doesn't suddenly become more valuable in comparison to crit until you start capping out. 1 crit equates to a fixed % of ZW dps increase (that number is between .4% and .5% depending on weapons/buffs). For each point of crit you add, you can expect your ZW to increase by crit * (.4), and that doesn't change whether its the first point of crit or the last.

Double attack should also scale linearly, and though I haven't calculated what 1 DA equates to on a ZW, it should also be fixed and is generally accepted as being lower than the bonus received by 1 point of crit.

This means that if you are at 70 crit, and 10 DA (assuming no procs), and you have a choice between an item with 5 crit or 5 DA, you should still take the crit item because each point of crit is still worth more than each point of DA.

However, you very very rarely face this choice, generally speaking you end up with a choice of 7 crit vs. 2 DA for a particular slot, or 7 DA vs. 2 crit. This is why peoples stats are more balanced in the real world (or i guess in game world!).

The fact that peoples stats are more balanced has everything to do with item availability and items with high crit values that proc, and nothing to do with any sort of relative loss in the gain UNTIL the values approach caps (keep in mind what buffs you usually get in raids).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

Most of what people are saying here is decent information, though I don't think you need near as high as 130 to hit 100% actual crit through the normalization vs. high level mobs. As far as I had seen, 110-115 was closer, though I could be wrong on this, I don't have a crit robe to plug and play and test until I get an actual 100% rate.

Either way, the formula for crits would differ between people in guilds that can kill avatars and people in guilds that can't. It doesn't make sense to bump your crit much over whatever the actual cap is (whether it's 110-115 or 130) -50 if there's a chance you can get the new crit bp... then you'd just be stuck trying to plug and play out other gear to make up for wasted crit then. That's why I try to keep a general balance, so I could theoretically plug and play new items without really having to worry about the possibility of a new piece of gear already "wasting" stats.

It's certainly based on mob level, I crit substantially less against avatars when compared against standard vp mobs. I'd tend to agree with you that 115ish is probably more accurate against 85/86ish stuff, and i think 125-130ish is more accurate against 88ish stuff. And I'm in full agreement with you about tailoring your gear for the mobs you're fighting. I've got the luxory of having a crit robe, and if I get proc buffers and we're hitting lower tier zones, I start to trade out crit gear for DA and CA dmg.

Chix · 04-30-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yobor

Not trying to flat out call you wrong, and maybe we're arguing over semantics here...but I believe you're making it seem like going from 75-80 crit vs. 5-10 crit somehow diminishes the value of crit in comparison to the other stats. This is simply not true, the crit gain is completely linear. 5crit is 5crit as long as you're below the cap and don't have crit proc items which push you above the cap. Double attack doesn't suddenly become more valuable in comparison to crit until you start capping out. 1 crit equates to a fixed % of ZW dps increase (that number is between .4% and .5% depending on weapons/buffs). For each point of crit you add, you can expect your ZW to increase by crit * (.4), and that doesn't change whether its the first point of crit or the last.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. What you have to keep in mind is, crits and double attacks benefit eachother. The more crit you have the more you gain from doubleattacks, and vice versa. In such a situation, the value of crits DOES decrease (in relation to double attacks) as you crit % rises. Not because the value of crits decreases per se (it is perfectly linear as stated), but because the value of double attacks actually INCREASES with increasing crit rate. (The more often your double attacks crit the more damage they will add, naturally)

An example:

At zero crit and double attack, crits might gain you 0.5% DPS per point and DA only 0.4% DPS per point. So naturally, crits is the way to go. So if your unmodified DPS was 800, 50% crits will put you at 1000 DPS (whereas 50% DA only would have resulted in 960 DPS).

Then you get the choice of 10% more crit or 10% more DA, what to choose?

Going with crits would put you at (1 + (0.6 * 0.5)) * 800 = 1040 DPS.

Going with DA would put you at 0.4 * 0.1 * 1000 = 1040 DPS.

(NOTE: Here I assumed the ratio of autoattack/CA's/INT based damage remained the same at both 800 and 1000 DPS. It would mostly likely not, but that fact actually works in favor of what I'm trying to prove.)

So at zero crits/DA, crits were better, but at 50% crit/0 DA they were now equal. Had crit been > 50%, DA would have been better.

So my point is, when you have 2 DPS mods that are effected by eachother, there IS a diminishing return on them, even if its linear. Not a diminishing return like that on haste/DPS, but diminishing in relation to "the other" DPS mod.

Choadley · 04-30-2008, 09:38 AM

If you'd just spec for STA/INT, you'd realize that this whole conversation is pointless.

Paperclip · 04-30-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Choadley

If you'd just spec for STA/INT, you'd realize that this whole conversation is pointless.

Done and done.

Nalvest · 04-30-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chix

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. What you have to keep in mind is, crits and double attacks benefit eachother. The more crit you have the more you gain from doubleattacks, and vice versa. In such a situation, the value of crits DOES decrease (in relation to double attacks) as you crit % rises. Not because the value of crits decreases per se (it is perfectly linear as stated), but because the value of double attacks actually INCREASES with increasing crit rate. (The more often your double attacks crit the more damage they will add, naturally)

What you are saying is true; but, it's not that the value of Crit decreases it's that the value of the other ones increase due to your increased Crit. Crit is the most valuable because it increases everything else.

Crit - does more AA and CA damage - increases the value of CA Damage and Double Attack
Double Attack does more AA damage - increases the value of Crit
CA Damage does more CA Damage - increase the value of Crit and decreases the value of CA Damage

Looking at that it's obvious why Crit is considered to be the #1 stat. The question is - at 99% crit is 1% Crit > 1% Double Attack (if you are wondering what your double attack is - it doesn't matter since double attack is linear as well and isn't impacted by anything other than crit, dps and attack speed - your haste / dps probably will make a difference as will your weapon).

I'm sure someone can work out exactly what the numbers are - perhaps if I get bored I will. Most of what has been posted previously is purely speculation and no one really knows.

Chix · 04-30-2008, 07:06 PM

Has it been confirmed that crits effect +CA?

All I know for sure, is that I tested +spell damage and spell crits with my troub few weeks ago. The results were, the +spell is added AFTER the crit (this has been documented on caster forums already, so wasnt anything new). Meaning spell crits and +spell damage do not benefit eachother. So far I've assumed +CA and melee crit works the same way.

Mendanbar · 04-30-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yobor

Not trying to flat out call you wrong, and maybe we're arguing over semantics here...but I believe you're making it seem like going from 75-80 crit vs. 5-10 crit somehow diminishes the value of crit in comparison to the other stats. This is simply not true, the crit gain is completely linear. 5crit is 5crit as long as you're below the cap and don't have crit proc items which push you above the cap. Double attack doesn't suddenly become more valuable in comparison to crit until you start capping out. 1 crit equates to a fixed % of ZW dps increase (that number is between .4% and .5% depending on weapons/buffs). For each point of crit you add, you can expect your ZW to increase by crit * (.4), and that doesn't change whether its the first point of crit or the last.

Double attack should also scale linearly, and though I haven't calculated what 1 DA equates to on a ZW, it should also be fixed and is generally accepted as being lower than the bonus received by 1 point of crit.

This means that if you are at 70 crit, and 10 DA (assuming no procs), and you have a choice between an item with 5 crit or 5 DA, you should still take the crit item because each point of crit is still worth more than each point of DA.

However, you very very rarely face this choice, generally speaking you end up with a choice of 7 crit vs. 2 DA for a particular slot, or 7 DA vs. 2 crit. This is why peoples stats are more balanced in the real world (or i guess in game world!).

The fact that peoples stats are more balanced has everything to do with item availability and items with high crit values that proc, and nothing to do with any sort of relative loss in the gain UNTIL the values approach caps (keep in mind what buffs you usually get in raids).

It's certainly based on mob level, I crit substantially less against avatars when compared against standard vp mobs. I'd tend to agree with you that 115ish is probably more accurate against 85/86ish stuff, and i think 125-130ish is more accurate against 88ish stuff. And I'm in full agreement with you about tailoring your gear for the mobs you're fighting. I've got the luxory of having a crit robe, and if I get proc buffers and we're hitting lower tier zones, I start to trade out crit gear for DA and CA dmg.

That's possibly correct... I haven't taken the time to test it this tier, my understanding was based on what I had read from clerics last tier, where many of them had 100% crit even (because of aa's), but would often be getting around 96-98% actualized crits against EoF mobs. Most EoF mobs were level 75-76, so the 115 was my guess vs. level 88 mobs. I haven't tried it though, so it's entirely possible the formula is something different.

Rhymez · 05-01-2008, 05:52 PM

one issue with DA is that when your dwing you wont always get a double attack from both weapons when one weapon double attacks ,each decides on their own
i expirienced that a lot and thats since ages like that in the moment this mod made into the game
so a formula would only apply if we are talking about one weapon

so you definatley focus on crit which is obvious anyways
I for myself ditch ofc 2 melee crit if theres an item for the slot that gives me 4 to 7 DA theres not much out there critwise that is better for those slots . cheking parses is also tellin me it normalizes
CA dmg is kinda meh easy to get it capped anyways