Brigands vs Assassins & Swashbucklers

Pickme · 04-04-2007, 11:02 PM

People saying that swashbucklers and assassins should out-dps us because we have more utility are fucking stupid, period!

We have debuffs yes, and thats what others consider utility, we bring nothing to our group, and really other than our appeal for mercy & our taunts we can't DIRECTLY help anyone in the raid with our utility.

Are mystics and defilers told that they can't heal better than other healers because they have debuffs? No they aren't, so why the hell should we have to sacrifice dps for our debuffs? Our debuffs help swashies and assassins deal more damage just as much as they help us...

Feel free to discuss

illuminare · 04-05-2007, 07:09 AM

in my opinion..a well debuffer=a well dpser...
almost all brigand's debuffs have dmg..
if we do our debuff well... we will do more dps
i often see some brigand never use revoke,skewer
or only use shrouded blade 2~3times in one min...
think we can't call these brigands a "well" debuffer...

Niber · 04-05-2007, 07:16 AM

Uhhh. I hope you were smoking crack when you created this thread. Mystics and Defilers use wards.. other healing classes do not. That makes Shaman unique and always "needed" because it's a niche role, just like dispatch. Did I need to say that?

If you made Brigands parse the same as Swashbucklers and Assassins unlike Shaman both classes both class would be gimped versions of Brigands without the debuffs. There would be no point in anyone rolling anything but Brigands.

Manyak · 04-05-2007, 07:50 AM

My basic thoery is that brigands and swashbucklers were balanced so that solo/grouped they do the same amount of DPS single target. Brig DPS with huge debuffs = swashy DPS without huge debuffs, assuming everything else equal (gear, CAs, and player skill). Meaning that when a brigand debuffs the mob for the swashy, they get the higher DPS numbers. Then of course swashys got more AE DPS so that gave em even more of an advantage.

But IMO, the DPS difference between brigs and swashys should be kinda the same as between Wizards and Warlocks - brigs should own on single target, while swashys should own on AE, whatever the debuffs are.

But assassins really should be able to pwn both classes on DPS. Technically, even if you don't want to consider debuffs utility, brigands do raise the overall raid dps more than an assassin does even though personal DPS may be lower. And honestly whats the point of assassins if brigs match their DPS? At most all you could argue is for the hate transfer for a tank, but that could easily be replaced by 3 other classes.

Henladar Bloodheart · 04-05-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niber

Uhhh. I hope you were smoking crack when you created this thread. Mystics and Defilers use wards.. other healing classes do not. That makes Shaman unique and always "needed" because it's a niche role, just like dispatch. Did I need to say that?

If you made Brigands parse the same as Swashbucklers and Assassins unlike Shaman both classes both class would be gimped versions of Brigands without the debuffs. There would be no point in anyone rolling anything but Brigands.

While they use wards they also win healing parses... in the MT group but still.
We should be doing less DPS then assassins though.

Lord Pantz · 04-05-2007, 02:27 PM

In my ideal world a swash would have been designed to debuff a mobs offenses as well as we debuff their defenses, we would do better on single target and they would do better on multiple target. Both of us would have a lower zonewide parse than an assassin, and in a zone that had an equal amount of single and multiple target mobs we would have the same zw parse.

Well its not the perfect world. And the fact is that swashies will always tend to have a higher zw than us because most zones are heavy on multiple group encounters, and most contested these days have adds that need to be slain. And I'm totally fine with that. However they shouldn't be doing as much or sometimes more dps than assassins and currently they are.

No our assassin doesn't suck. He parses extremely well. So we can stop that argument before it starts.

Tobias Fünke · 04-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Pants

Well its not the perfect world. And the fact is that swashies will always tend to have a higher zw than us because most zones are heavy on multiple group encounters, and most contested these days have adds that need to be slain. And I'm totally fine with that. However they shouldn't be doing as much or sometimes more dps than assassins and currently they are.

This.

IMO what it comes down to is En Garde and Inspiration being much too powerful for their recast timers. Every swashbuckler I've talked to who isn't afraid of a balanced game has agreed with this.

Niber · 04-05-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Pants

In my ideal world a swash would have been designed to debuff a mobs offenses as well as we debuff their defenses, we would do better on single target and they would do better on multiple target. Both of us would have a lower zonewide parse than an assassin, and in a zone that had an equal amount of single and multiple target mobs we would have the same zw parse.

Well its not the perfect world. And the fact is that swashies will always tend to have a higher zw than us because most zones are heavy on multiple group encounters, and most contested these days have adds that need to be slain. And I'm totally fine with that. However they shouldn't be doing as much or sometimes more dps than assassins and currently they are.

No our assassin doesn't suck. He parses extremely well. So we can stop that argument before it starts.

I agree, in a perfect world. But there's never been a noticeable offensive debuff in EQ2.

stryph · 04-05-2007, 02:55 PM

Basically with the Swashy reduced timer AA on Inspiration and the combination of En Garde, Hurricane, etc etc.. Swashys are parsing extremely high for a debuffing class this expansion.

Brigands took a hit with losing AR..on most encounters nobody could out dps us on a single target with ae's before.

Assassin should beat Brig/Swashy all the time, I have no problem with that..but Brigand and Swashy should be parsing similar for a debuffing class.

Lord Pantz · 04-05-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niber

I agree, in a perfect world. But there's never been a noticeable offensive debuff in EQ2.

Sad, but true good sir.