DizzierDizzi

i say hybrid, i switch out some gear and go defensive i can get up to 85-87% avoid and barely any mob can hit me, then for raids i can go offensive and be able to parse 4th or 5th zonewide just under swashs assassin and rangers. Definately hybrid for me

Uglak

That doesn't really solve anything - it just means less fighter classes are being skipped because extra bards and coercers take their spot.

Craddok, I'm not saying those are the best ideas, but they're a starting point for discussion. Plus, if Shake Off offered immunity to knockback, that wouldn't even need specific content to be written for it - you're telling me that you can't think of any raid situations where having the tank immune to knockback wouldn't be immensely useful? Besides, I'm sure there are other useful options we could think of.

gungo

How does that not solve anything.
Each fighter would be unique and needed.
Each fighter would be wanted on raids, or groups or solo.

Monks will have bruisers aoe abilites and tanking aa's
Bruisers will have monks utility and avoidance
Brawlers will have the sole use of the avoid other buff for the tank.

Guards will have zerks aoe agro (not dps) and solo ability
Zerks will have guards tanking abilites and surviability

Sk will still be crazy overpowered and useful for aoe tanking while still not being as good as warrior for tanking.
Pal with amends will have crazey aoe agro and with increases to thier raid wide and thier survivability(sv vs death spell) will still be useful to take that 4th fighter slot.

These are the main issues most of those classes constantly complain about. It also fits in the core problem of TO MANY fighters. It also solves the issue of to many fighters who do the same damn thing. And while the number of fighters will remain the same they will still benefit because they will be substantially better by making them the best of both worlds.

Btw shake off is already immensly useful. It avoids 20-30% of the hits on the main tank. Not to say they should not add an aa line to add more to it. But the main issue with it is all fighters share the same effect with minimal issues.

Crabbok

20-30% avoided? I got 52% avoided on the MT the other day with Shake Off! Course that was a short fight!
In max defensive gear I normally get 40% of the tanks avoid. Shake off owns, but it's not known well enough. I'd like to see it gain additional utility.

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Uglak

It doesn't solve anything because brawlers aren't really any more needed than they are now, and they wouldn't be wanted on raids over extra DPS or power regen (and I'm only addressing raids here). We need something extra to get us over the line in terms of offering either buffs, DPS, or something unique that offers more than Bard X, Chanter Y or Extra DPSer Z can offer.

Merging classes (whilst a sensible) also doesn't solve the problem of too many fighters - the same amount of fighters still exist, they're just spread across less classes. Optimal raid setup still isn't using extra fighters just because classes are consolidated from 6 to 4. There has to be a reason to take them.

Shake Off is my case in point. Great ability, 40% chance to use the brawler's avoidance in addition to the targets at adept1 level. Is that getting brawlers a coveted position in the optimal raid setup now? Nope. It needs some extra juice to even make people think - well, can we afford to give up having Shake Off on the MT to get more DPS or regen in raid? Right now, brawlers don't bring enough other stuff to the table to offset the fact that more than 2 fighters in raid is pretty much a waste for most encounters, and that encounters in general don't have anything in them that makes use of the things we do better than other classes.

Crabbok

You know why it needs extra juice? Because ALL fighters have the same exact buff. If only brawlers had it, it would be more desired to have brawlers.

I'd say 3 is a better number. Just about every fight that has adds, also has some condition that can temporarily incapacitate the Off-Tank. I can't tell you how many times our Off-Tank gets some incurable stun or de-targetted, or something and says "Crab, I need you to pick up the next wave of adds". Sure 2 may be fine for alot of fights, but for the harder stuff I 'd say 3 is best.

And 3 being best woudl be great with Gungo's Suggestion. Warrior tanking, Paladin and SK as off tanks, and a brawler avoiding on the MT and dps'ing. You coudl easily get all 4 fighters in that kinda raid. It'd take more tweaks to some other classes but I coudl totally see that working.

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DizzierDizzi

Well if i dps in raid on my brusier i am 4th or 5th zonewide, i have the ability to off tank, Shake off and i get out dps'd by 2 swashies and usually a ranger and/or assassin- another ranger would bring nothing to raid another swash would bring nothing already have hate for MT and OT and another assasssin, we dont need more hate, again getting another wouldnt bring anything to a raid. any of those classes have no ability to tank, we can DPS with the best of em. We can tank with the best of em. Dont know what else we need, We dont wanna be SK 2 point o do we..

Ajeco

I've been advocating this for a long time:

Figthers need to be merged!
Infact, I feel a lot of classes need to be merged, like druids, shamen, bards, chanters, summoners, rogues. Well, maybe rogues not so much...

Notice how each archytype has 4 classes that could easily and almost seamlessly be merged. Just tells you that there isn't a whole lot of variation between the two counterparts to warant a whole different class.

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gungo

Ment mostly offensive you can get it higher but then you loose more personal dps.

gungo

I will just disagree based on the current fact there is rarely any raid guilds who do not have at least 1 brawler currently on their roster. Thus they will take at least 1 of the new better brawler classes.

Furthermore bruiser/monks will benefit greatly from the merge in that they become substantially better if merged correctly. Bruisers with haste added to stances, cast speed added to thier raid wide, stun mitigation buff AA added to bruiser tree AA, higher avoidance added to myth, hate transfer/siphon on shrug off instead of intercede AA, peel, maybe the magic ward, maybe allow the bruiser heal to be cast on others, maybe add more cure effects to our self cure in the bruiser tree AA. Monks in general would benefit alot more though....

Finally if they removed the avoid buff from every other fighter it would give brawlers a GOOD buff that isn't watered down due to the fact everyone will have the same thing.