Insayn

I voted DPS. Im sick and tired of playing second fiddle to Plate tanks. Whenever we are getting a group together and a plate tank is available after im already in group they will invite him and tell me to throw my dps spec on.

Truth of the matter is if there is alot of AoE content (TSO) im not a very good tank.

I would love it if we were a DPS class that can tank if need be. (Which we are already just bump up our DPS a bit more.) We should clearly do more damage than plate tanks. ATM plate tanks can dps as well as we can with equal gear.

Either Nerf plate tank damage or bump ours up alot.

Imogan

This post is rediculous.

How much dps do you want? If your answer is more than 85% of rogues (which is about where bruisers are now), roll another class.

How much tanking ability do you want? If your answer is to be higher than 2nd in terms of raid survivability, roll another class.

You don't need avatar gear to be at either of those standards. You do need lots of aa's to tank that well, and you need to have very nice dps gear to dps that well. But both are possible.

For instance tanking the only reason brawlers are less effective is the way uncontested works. Plate tanks can stay in offensive for even the hardest, orange-con instance bosses. So they don't suffer to-hit penaties. Bruisers get plastered in offensive by orange-cons because they have no uncontesed. Brawler survivability is on-par with plate tanks, and bruisers in particular is better than most, when comparing defensive stances.

Bruiser dps potential is only below SKs (on single targets). To fix the survivability-gap, they need to address the lack of penalties in offensive stance for plate tanks.

The revamp was such a massive boost to brawlers. Not so much in what it did directly for them, but how it addressed the single biggest disparity between them and plate tanks...no penalty to survivability for plate tanks in O-stance (which was still not addressed, but it at least took O-stance off the table most of the time).

Had the revamp gone thought, there would of been absolutely zero merit to the statement that plate tanks are more survivable than brawlers for instance content. In fact, unless the plate tank was geared significantly better than the brawler, it would of been the opposite.

Insayn

Imogen said:

Brawler survivability is on-par with plate tanks.

LMAO! Get out of bruiser forum.

malos

From the way I see it if the changes did go through bruisers would have been hosed and would have lost more than gained. However that is just my opinion.

I find that an sk having better dps potential than a bruiser uncalled for. One thing that a bruiser even as a subpar tank should have is better dps "potential" than the plates.

Crabbok

We have no uncontested? Are you SURE? Clearly you are a moron. Probably some lackluster rogue who can't dps and got outparsed by a descent brawler and is butthurt about it.

__________________

gungo

He does bring up a good point. Bruisers who want to be dps. Have to realize if they think its bad fighting with 5 other tanks for a tanking role. have fun when fighting with 12 other classes (all non fighter/healers) fighting for a dps roll.

Insayn

How many Tank roles are there in a Raid?

How many dps roles are there?

It would be a joke if I told the raid I would like to MT for the raid today. Seriously people would laugh.

I believe I am capable to tanking alot of the content but equally geared plate tanks are gonna be better.

So we are the only fighters that can't tank in a raid. So shouldn't we without a dought have the most dps? Why does our guild's SK have the same DPS as me plus he can tank a raid?

Something's not right here.

malos

If any fighter that gets shown some love will make other fighters moan and groan for the same treatment. The reason I think it is this way is first people are jealous and second soe needs to lay out the purpose of the class as being what it is and that is what they do.

Soe should just lay it out on the table and say for example: guardians shall be the toughest of all the fighters in the game, berserkers will be the best aoe fighters, paladins will be tough and can greatly benefit a group....ect.

Until players know what is expected from a class there will always be confusion.

Azraël

I'm ok with showing SOME love to a fighter once in a while, but what happened to SKs is a virtual orgy.
Have you seen their dps? while they tank? their survival? Their aggro on both single and multi target? And even fucking soloing or dueling?
Something is definitly fucked up there, and you don't need to be smart to notice a class just became wonderfuck for some reason.
Some reason yeah... Odds are that WoW released an expansion pack aproximativly at the same time tso went out, and guess what was their new playable class was? and yeah, it's an overpowered class !
Marketing had to somehow weight a lot in the decisions, they want to keep customers paying.
Now if we want to compare us to other fighter classes, as i said before my only issue is AE aggro and dumb strikethrough where my shiny 90% avoidance is equal to 0 when the plate tanks still can take the hit and mitigate it, proc more stoneskin/wards from items/spells cause they get hit more often.
DPS wise on single targets when i don't suck i can beat zerker, guard, pally and at some point even our monk when he was not getting all the brawler gear. But why the fuck are the enchanters, dirges, doing so much dps? And why i always see an sk in the dps charts even when he's in defensive tanking a mob?

I don't know, raise intensivly our AE aggro without putting dps into account on this aggro generation so the zerkers don't whine about that. and nerf the goddam SKs, it's a disgusting noob-friendly class at the moment. I thought about leveling mine back just before tso, now i'm gonna just leave him at the character selection screen until he reaches a tolerable level of decency.

__________________

Imogan

Well, I clearly made a mistake in assuming most of you would understand your own class, I apologize for that.

And this from the class leader no less...

The only uncontested avoidance bruisers have when in offensive stance comes from adornments, certain equipment, and food. All fighters share those. By far the largest source of uncontested avoidance comes directly from defensive stance. The numbers on brawler defensive and mid stance are not arbitrary. The amount is meant to simulate a low level fabled shield. In RoK, defensive stance gave a minimum deflection chance similar to using a shield with 1500ish protection. In TSO brawlers got a bonus 6% added directly onto the stance via aas. They had still not gone back and adjusted the 'shield equivalent' though. That's where that extra 3% on defensive stance came from in the revamp. That was SOE adjusting the stance value to latch the increase in shield protection values that has occured in TSO (that 3% increase is now gone, another buff brawlers lost due to the scrapping of the revamp).

The comment you took out of context was explaining why brawlers are so far behind plate tanks in tanking in offensive. In defensive stances, a brawler with M1 defensive stance, and TSO aa's will have about the same level of base, uncontested avoidance as a plate tank with the Dwarven shield, that's mid-upper 20%. With typical equipment and AA mods (deflection chance mods and shield effectiveness) that goes up to mid to upper 30's. That's not including any 'extra' mods (such as RE2 cloak, Sisters wrist, etc), adornments, or food. The stance delfection, and shield block, are by far the major source of uncontested avoidance. The total amount of equipment based uncontested (extra chances, adornments, food) is typically around 20 or so, so the stance based minimum deflection, and block from shield, make up 60-80% of the total amount of uncontested avoidance a tank has. There is no minimum deflection when in offensive, so when a brawler changes to that stance, they lose 2/3 their uncontested avoidance. When a plate tank changes to offensive stance they lose NOTHING.


Stupid post #2:

I said in defensive. Above shows how avoidance for a brawler in defensive, with M1 stance, is about the same as a plate tank with an Avatar shield. There are 2 more componants to survivability; mitigation and specials.

The difference in mitigation between brawlers and plate tanks has narrowed to where it is almost meaningless. With TSO aa's, comparing similar tiers of gear there is only a 1500ish difference in mitigation now. 1500 is a big difference if you start at 1000. 1500 is a tiny difference if it's between 7000 and 8500. On top of that, if you happen to have your mythical, you get to take 10% off the top, which is unneffected by the curve.

In terms of specials, the only class that has better specials are Guardians. Bruisers have far more, with more variety and flexibility, but they have Tower of Stone. Even if they had nothing else, that one skill is by far the most powerfull survival ability in the game. As long as Guardians have that one ability, they will always be the most survivable. Bruisers have more than any other class though.

So, in defensive, bruisers have avoidance equal to plate tank with a top end Fable shield, mitigation only slightly below (the difference between 7 and 8.5k is about 2%), and better specials that all classes except Guardians.

The reason brawlers are sub-par tanks is that plate tanks have absolutely zero reason to ever tank in defensive when fighting orange con mobs. The loss of the 15% mitigation bonus is just as meaningless to them as the difference between brawler and plate mitigation is to bruisers. The loss of parry and defense on the stance has zero effect on avoidance against orange con mobs. Plate tank survivability against orange con mobs DOES NOT CHANGE AT ALL WHEN THEY SWITCH FROM DEFENSIVE TO OFFENSIVE. Brawler survivability takes a massive hit when they do. So tanking orange con mobs, plate tanks can stay in offensive, keep their hit rates high, continue to have high dps and hold aggro. A bruiser who tries to tank orange cons in offensive will get spanked.

Brawler's tanking ability does not need 'fixing'. What needs fixing is plate tanks ability to tank in offensive with all the bonus' and no penalties.

If the uncontested avoidance given by shields was somehow tied to stances, as brawler uncontested is, a huge part of the problem that led to this 'revamp' would of never even existed.

If all fighters were forced to tank in defensive, the difference in survivability would be(and is) minimal. That's why I said the revamp was a huge (albiet indirect) buff to brawler tanking.