Gear degredation being put into place early! - Page 3

gungo · 09-09-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhuin

An extrapolation of an idea someone on the forums there had:

Take current "+1 melee crit chance", and instead of that being 1%, literally make it +1. Just +1 unit. So if you have 100 Melee crit units, you have a 100% chance to crit against same-level mobs. If someone is one level higher, their level mitigates, say, 5% of that. or 3%, whatever the #. If you need 200 Melee Crit to have a 100 Melee Crit rate against level 90 mobs, that leaves them a clear path to upgrade gear without lowering your efficacy against lower tier mobs.

Make the same thing apply to double-attack and spell crit (it actually stands to reason - the stronger an enemy is the less likely you are to be able to land two hits on it, or take advantage of a weakness in it (spell crit/melee crit).

Now, for heal crit -> same idea. Your heal crit units against a player's level. A level 90 player is far more hardy/badass/what have you than a level 80, so you need 200 Heal Crit in order to critical heal them every time. If you have 150 - yeah, you'll crit against someone level 85 every time, or 80 every time - but a level 90? 75% of the time. They're harder to heal, thus harder to do it right.

Will you have lower dps against a level 90 mob? Well, not really - with the current gear, sure, but with upgraded gear it should be pretty much the same dps you have now. Given that mobs get stronger as players get stronger, that simply implies their defense has increased as your offensive skills increased.

Make CA damage mods and heal mods work the same way - all of it contested vs. target level - and you have a system that doesn't trivialize our current accomplishments and also allows a path for real progression.

EDIT: For + mitigation items (our feet, shoulders), it's really simple - just add ~120 mitigation to the piece and call it a day. That roughly equates to 1% mitigation overall, and allows for there to again be upgrades, and puts that mitigation back into the contested territory.

Do the same with +avoidance. Deflection chance and shield block %, well, they could leave as is or convert them to a contested stat as well - either way, it's not a huge contender.

As for the +base CA damage - that's something they shouldn't have put in there in the first place. Converting that over to +CA and +spell damage and changing the DR rules for that stat would likely be the cleanest way out of that. They could also make that a contested stat as well and remove the cap.

Start adding in the idea of enemies that heavily debuff groups in non-curable ways (raw stats, resists, these actual stats) and you get into territory where it would be necessary to have > 100% on a stat in order to mitigate their debuffs, etc. There's a lot of elegant ways out of this.

I agree this is best but when i brought it up fyreflyte basically said it was currently not possible. They would need to do alot more code changes to make something like this work. Imho they should do that and make it right the first time, but that's a debate we can fight when the changes hit test.

Crabbok · 09-10-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gungo

Well assuming with the current gear we can get 100% on all the % based effects (minus crit bonus). And they claim that gear deagradation allows them to add gear to keep up. Then we assume that lvl 90 gear will allow us to have 100% still at some point.

To say we are the best we will ever be is complete horse crap as well or more sky is falling BS. Simply because those few % based stats are hardly what makes a character so powerful. Levels, Aa's, spell upgrades, and non % based effects and procs will always move upwards and are certainly more powerful then the tiny reduction in a few pieces of gear people use from avatars currently.

It's been said many times both by the playerbase and by devs (Fireflyte included) that it's too easy for raiders to cap any given stat, and that makes it difficult for them to design upgrades. If I'm already at 100% crit, would i REALLY want to equip that new ring with 8 crit as opopsed to my 7 crit ring?

And the reason we are the best we will be, is because we are talking relative to current content. We are currently more powerful than the devs intended, and more powerful than they wanted us to be able to become. I suppose, if you want to REALLY get specific, you could say that PRE GU-52 we were actually at our peak of power.

It doesn't mean that we do more dps than we will at lvl 100, it just means that if fully geared, we can plow through current tier content with more relative ease than we can expect to at other points in the games past or future.

Some things could change this. Adding new effects/abilities on gear, making mount buffs more significant, or even adding additional equipment slots, like 2 extra rings someday, could all lend a hand toward eventually making us more relatively OP than we are now.

Either way, I don't think anyone wants to get effectively nerfed each lvl cap, and feel as though they now have to gain 10 more levels to once again become EXACTLY the same as they were. It all boils down to how it feels for the player, and I'm hoping it FEELS good when they launch SF.

Daekan · 09-10-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daekan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crabbok

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasttan

It seems people leave out the fact that there will be level 90 gear with enough crap on it im sure to easily maintain 100% in what ever you want.

What makes you say this is a fact? That's an awfully big assumption.

Well, in all fairness, it's also a big assumption to state the contrary. How would anyone know?

Um, Fyreflyte said as much when he declared avatar gear had to be nerfed or else it'd be the best gear in SF as well, even after degradation.

Since our precious avatar gear is getting nerfed and degraded at Lv90, you're saying this means the new Lv90 gear won't get us 100% stats on stuff? I'm still saying it's a big assumption either way.

Sudden

Crabbok · 09-10-2009, 10:50 AM

It's not as big an assumption as you might think. They don't WANT us maxxing everything so easily, and gear degredation gives them a perfect way to ensure that we never max anything ever again.

Daekan · 09-10-2009, 11:12 AM

I see your point, Crabbok. It'll definitely pose the question as to whether content will be designed to work with this. I'm not sure where the source of panic/dismay is coming from, though. It's not like people are going to turn into instant scrubs when gear starts degrading.

It sucks that everyone's worked hard on getting a bunch of instance/avatar loot to watch it wash away with a new expansion, but when RoK came out, what % of Lv70 gear did everyone keep by the time they hit 80? What % of Lv70 gear did everyone keep after gearing up from RoK instances? No one looked back.

This is different when TSO came out after everyone geared up in RoK. There was better gear that significantly replaced most of RoK gear, but there wasn't a level increase to degrade gear during the transition.

What's not being thought about is that a new character levelling up to 90 isn't going to have nearly any of the equipment we do now. How terrible it'll be if Lv80 became a pausing point in levelling due to needing raid gear to level up to 90! I'm hoping that getting to 90 with a fresh character carrying legendary gear drops and rewards from quests is doable with additional quest rewards and random drops/faction merchants to carry the character along to 90.

Assuming that's the case, with the gear and such we have now, we shouldn't have any problem hitting 90 and being ready to start taking raids out to gear up. If Lv90 content is designed behind not needing stats maxed, then it shouldn't be hard for a group of skilled players to get geared up and take stuff down.

If this means Lv90 content is more skill than gear, then this could be a blessing in disguise for Bruisers...

Sudden

Gaige · 09-10-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gungo

To say we are the best we will ever be is complete horse crap as well or more sky is falling BS. Simply because those few % based stats are hardly what makes a character so powerful. Levels, Aa's, spell upgrades, and non % based effects and procs will always move upwards and are certainly more powerful then the tiny reduction in a few pieces of gear people use from avatars currently.

They ruined procs, AAs are usually worthless, levels? lol, spell upgrades are are a linear increase which usually coincide with increased mob hp; so yea - we'll never be as good as we are the night before avatar loot gets nerfed.

Stonestrong · 09-10-2009, 02:21 PM

Crabbok loves men.....

gungo · 09-10-2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gage

Wagghhh!!

Seriously as crabbok said everything is relative. Your character will be more powerful at level 90 then it was at level 80 regardless of a few blue stats. If at lvl 90 vs 90 content the fights are harder then level 80 vs 80 then you will be correct, but i find that scenario completely absurd since it requires content harder then it is relative today. It is statistically impossible to be weaker at 90 then we are at 80 with the way the game is made. We will hit harder and have more hitpoints, our dps will go up. In all accounts that means you are stronger. You are basically just bitching like a 10 year old girl who just got her period for the first time, becuase they are going to nerf the ~3 avatar items you are wearing.

Stonestrong · 09-10-2009, 02:43 PM

Would you say that the 10 year old girl in your scenario is mature enough to have sex with Sam Deathwalker for 150$?

Crabbok · 09-10-2009, 02:58 PM

Sure you MIGHT hit harder at 90 than you do at 80, and I hope you do. But the cause for concern is here:

Each level cap increase EQ2(or ANY game to my knowledge) has seen, has not caused gear to decay as you level up. It doesn't need to. People Will automaticlly use the new gear because it is BETTER than the old gear. This system has always worked.

Now if level 90 gear is going to follow that same progression, and loot will be BETTER than lvl 80 gear, there would be absolutely no need for gear decay, (Especially since with this most recent avatar nerf, Sony is willing and able to nerf certain key items they feel are overpowered).

It's logical to conclude that lvl 90 gear will NOT follow the natural progression in gear that we have always seen. I conclude that either lvl 90 gear is going to be "weaker" than lvl 80 gear in an overall sense, or there is some new mechanic in the works that will completely change the game up in a way I cannot forsee.