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Old 02-11-2008, 04:10 PM  
Coercers are Bananas
 
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Default My extended epic analysis

I decided not to comment too much on the epic until I had a good night's sleep. Since I finally slept last night, here's my opinion on the weapon. Feel free to share your thoughts too, I know there's a bit posted in the epic info thread, but I wanted to go more indepth. Please forgive me if I bore you to death.

Epic weapon pictures stolen from Duress:

(P.S. Grats, Raethe on your discovery)


My analysis will start with the basics, the stats and delay, and then move on the the individual effects. My overall take on the weapon is positive, but it doesn't mean that there's not problems with the weapon as well.

42 Sta, 32 Wis, 68 Int:
Stamina and int are great and in good amounts. But what's up with wis, and why do we always get it on our weapons? It doesn't do anything significant for us. Why couldn't we have had strength, which might help the minority but still significant amount of STR-line enchanters like this weapon?

134-401, 5.0 delay:
I'm sure this was standardized among all the mages, but this delay is really only above average. Since STR-line coercers exist, they actually get a downgrade on their melee dps in comparison to a Hammer of Swirling Constellations. It's clearly not a big deal, but it's something to chew on.

8 focus, 10 disruption:
Disruption is nice. However, there's a clear lack of other +skills, subjugation and ordination. Now, I know that our current hit rates are high so that testing the value of skills in raid isn't very important, but at least subjugation is the basis of the coercer class. Why not shove it on there instead of focus?

+5 Max Power:
Five percent maximum power is worthless. For someone with 10,000 power, that's a 500 bonus. Sprinted to volatile magic, that's 150 extra power. Really now, why not just give us more spell crit, spell damage, or if you were feeling generous, base damage. Essentially, I would have liked anything else. Maximum power is useless in the face of massive power regeneration and always will be, and we already have that regeneration capability, thus making this quite useless.

+8 Crit:
Pretty much makes this the best DPS weapon available for us.

Siren's Stare - Adds mental damage to fighter's taunts:
This ability is very good. Although it's group-only buff, it provides the fighter in your group an added 650 damage nuke onto their taunts. This is like giving your fighter Hemorrhage as well as Dissecting Gaze. Every 8 seconds, they have a 0.5 nuke for 650 damage? And the AE taunt, every 30 seconds. It has the potential to add 400-600 dps to your fighter. That will clearly aid your fighter in keeping hate, or just help dps in general. While your raid setup really determines the value of this spell, overall, it's a great ability.

Siren's Gift - 10% Reuse and 20% Group Power Reduction:
Ten percent base reuse is incredible. Currently, it's the highest amount you can get on any item, and only second in amount to the sorcerer's AGI line. DPS-wise you should see a boost nearly equal to the amount of reuse given. As a bonus, it also helps reuse on channel. I'm very glad about this.
Now, on the flip side, we have the 20% group power reduction. At the point in the game where you can obtain this weapon, power consumption is not a significant issue in raids, not only due to power regen abilities (especially those abilities of a coercer - base regen, Channel, Manaflow, Mana Shroud and more) and power-returning items (phantom piths and power-proc items and skills). If this ability didn't even exist on the epic, I wouldn't notice that I was missing it, and when it does proc, I don't notice that it's up. Overall, mediocre.

Siren's Flow - Group mana flow:
This is good. Mana flow now has a duration of 8 seconds between when we lose power and when we get it back, as well as half the cost in health and power. Futher, the group-target allows us to pretty much blast the raid with power. I use mana flow constantly, and while mana isn't a huge problem in raids, the abilty to totally control and replenish other groups pretty much allows others to go full out without worries about power.
The current problem is that it returns 10% power for every group member on termination. That's a 60% power return that coercers simply don't want. We have to sprint off enough of our power as it is. Hopefully this gets fixed or altered. It makes me wish they had given us something like the guardians which altered aa, so that our Volatile Magic line would no longer require a power amount. This would not only help adapt to the group mana flow but make us more viable when we channel and get ourselves to full power in that way.


Well, so there you have it. Highs and lows in this weapon; you can't say it's overpowered because most of the strengths lie in power regen (which is useful, but not vital), but you can't say it's crap either, because it offers us high utility and dps aside from the other abilities (with crit, reuse, and giving fighters damage to their taunts).
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:42 PM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

Hrm, while the weapon does do less DPS than the Hammer of Swirling Constellations, there's 1 thing to remember. You will be delaying auto-attacks by less with it. Thus negating that DPS lose.

What is the weapon's low end? 134
What is the weapon's high end? 401
What is the weapon's delay? 5
What is the weapon's added Double Attack? 58
How much Crit % do you have? 55
Your average Crit will be 422.501 damage.
With a 55% Crit Chance, you will do (352.75, 111.469 DPS){5s}

What is the weapon's low end? 47
What is the weapon's high end? 266
What is the weapon's delay? 3
What is the weapon's added Double Attack? 58
How much Crit % do you have? 55
Your average Crit will be 277.903 damage.
With a 55% Crit Chance, you will do (223.272, 117.59 DPS){3s}

Hrm, I should add haste and DPS to my little program too I think.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:44 PM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revel View Post
42 Sta, 32 Wis, 68 Int:
Stamina and int are great and in good amounts. But what's up with wis, and why do we always get it on our weapons? It doesn't do anything significant for us. Why couldn't we have had strength, which might help the minority but still significant amount of STR-line enchanters like this weapon?

134-401, 5.0 delay:
I'm sure this was standardized among all the mages, but this delay is really only above average. Since STR-line coercers exist, they actually get a downgrade on their melee dps in comparison to a Hammer of Swirling Constellations. It's clearly not a big deal, but it's something to chew on.
Everytime I mention the desirability of Str or damage range on coercer items, I get flamed. As you say, it isn't like Wis does anything for coercer, and enchanters would get something out of a higher DR than the other mages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revel View Post
+5 Max Power:
Five percent maximum power is worthless. For someone with 10,000 power, that's a 500 bonus. Sprinted to volatile magic, that's 150 extra power. Really now, why not just give us more spell crit, spell damage, or if you were feeling generous, base damage. Essentially, I would have liked anything else. Maximum power is useless in the face of massive power regeneration and always will be, and we already have that regeneration capability, thus making this quite useless.
As useful as the +10% max power on the fabled robe. Oh boy, +15% max power with both!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revel View Post
Now, on the flip side, we have the 20% group power reduction. At the point in the game where you can obtain this weapon, power consumption is not a significant issue in raids, not only due to power regen abilities (especially those abilities of a coercer - base regen, Channel, Manaflow, Mana Shroud and more) and power-returning items (phantom piths and power-proc items and skills). If this ability didn't even exist on the epic, I wouldn't notice that I was missing it, and when it does proc, I don't notice that it's up. Overall, mediocre.
Seems more illusionist-based anyway (Savante). Coercers seem to be more about getting more out of their allies (Impetus, Coercive Healing) and hate management (Enraging Demeanor, Peaceful Link) than making them more efficient. We alter their power pool regardless of what they want with Channeling. Whatever this ability is, it should be something along those lines. Maybe a +% to base melee and spell attack damage to the group.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:48 PM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

As a fuzzy data point for Pinski, last night I was using the heroic version in PR and my autoattacks were crit'ing consistently for 1K+. I was seeing about 320-350 dps from autoattack alone.
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Old 02-11-2008, 05:45 PM  
Coercers are Bananas
 
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

Pinksi wasn't posting for how much dps you'd do, but just comparison numbers in a controlled environment. I added in the dps and haste, but the numbers are basically the same. In practice, you'll see larger numbers with debuffs and whatnot.

But, as you noted, I didn't take into account the handling of the delay for the weapon, longer delays are much better in practice.

Last edited by Revel; 02-11-2008 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 02-11-2008, 06:37 PM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

Great post Revel.

For those of you with Mirrors (we all should have them by now) I've been swapping out healcrit to go full melee DPS spec. Works out great.

Anything with a slightly more than mild level of difficulty (or a fight like Venril where I just don't want to melee) I swap back to healcrit.

Pumps out about 400-500 DPS if you've got impetus on yourself.
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:36 PM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

does anyone feel like this is completely shit

we get a 12% chance to proc a 20% power reduction and Wardens get a stoneskin. guards get buckler lines without having to have a buckler...

imo the manaflow is nice ( not the 60percent regen part) and the 10 percent reuse is nice... and the added mental damage to the fighter is a step in the right direction...

i just feel like im being left short of other classes who get this amazing skill on thier epic's...

p.s. get rid of the 20 percent reduction and add 12 percent chance to proc a 20 sec buff that negates VM power componant... and i would definatly praise this weapon!
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:12 AM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

Its fucking shit. It had so much premise and it blows complete ass.

Remember, I only say this when compared to other "epics" .

This isnt fucking epic in any sense of the word.


1)+5 max power
2)Siren's Gift
3)+8 focus +10disruption


3 things that totally SUCK about it. 2/3 of them being HUGE (by that I mean effects).

Who the FUCK needs 20% less power use in group, I WANT my group to use power so I can actually use my fucking 4 spells I have that already counter this (Gorging|ManaShroud|Channeling|ManaFlow).

The fighter taunt thing is cool, for the fighter...not us. Okay, but yay some good utility for once.

Group mana flow...wow, uhhh...right back at the mana thing again. This effect is "neat" but not fucking "epic" because its NOT FUCKING NEEDED.


Its a sad day when you get your epic and it does JACK SHIT for yourself...wow 10% reuse , is that really it? Is that the creame of the crop that they could give to us? Confirmation that neither devs nor people that itemize know anything about what coercers want.

I mean, did you see wizard epic? 10% double spell attack? jesus christ, 10% base damage, 35% more based off INT with a 1k nuke. Yah ok they are a DPS class but jesus...thats god damn epic.

The templar epic, group aegolism with added bonuses, decrease damage done to your tank while reflecting 15% back, and 20% cast spell while immunity to stun effects.

etc etc...Fuck it...
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Co-er-cer(noun) - To be coerced into thinking you will get anything exceptional.
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Fix Coercers in 08' !!

Last edited by Linyen; 02-12-2008 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:36 AM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

oh and I second what was said above, change WIS to STR for godsake, im sick of being overweight all the time, plus it'd be nice for STR line.
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Co-er-cer(noun) - To be coerced into thinking you will get anything exceptional.
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:44 AM  
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Default Re: My extended epic analysis

i agree with (wow am i that far up you ass revel? lol ) revel

as bush said "it is what it is" and if you want to kill trakanon you wwill most likely be holding this weapon. With all the dps that coming out of these mythicals coercers are going to become more important to main tank groups i think. I can;t wait to see a wizzie spell doubl attack crit on ice nova.... lol

i parse 2kish it wil go up with this weapon... this is designed to kill big, difficult mobs.


personally some dbuffs or something would be nice?
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