Revel

Good idea to start this thread. Perhaps we should do like what I hear the fury's have done, and upon deciding a proper change (if we can all get some kind of agreement), mass /feedback for it to at least get attention to these issues.

Of the ideas you guys have presented in just a few hours, (very nice ideas!) I'd probably rank them like this:

1) Group perpetuality and/or reuse
2) Group strikethrough
3) Hate control
4) Immunity/controls proc/reactiveness

The groupwide perpetuality is the most intriguing. Casting haste and Group reuse sound like separate abilities, though. Although you could fit it in by swapping both Gift and Stare probably, it might be difficult to determine fair amounts for both.

So, maybe it's wise to split up the discussion of casting speed and reuse. The results of having casting speed would place you directly into the mage group or MT group, or at least a hybrid group depending on your group setups. As you noted, scouts nor fighters have no use for these buffs, whereas sorcerers, shaman and clerics would benefit greatly. On the other hand, by adding group reuse, everyone would benefit, from scouts to fighters to mages to priests, thus our group wouldn't necessarily be predetermined. I don't think whatever change we ask for necessary has to benefit everyone, though - having group casting speed be useless for those other classes simply forces the raid leader to accommodate group makeups. Obviously, helping everyone is ideal, but unlikely. The illusionists' alteration to rapidity is only for melee, for example. So there have to be some compromises.

On the subject of compromises, the amounts would likely have to be changed as well. Would it be worth it if it only offered half of what we currently have? This would be a 5% group reuse, or a 21% group casting haste buff. I think so; if I were given a choice, I would greatly take 5% group reuse over up to 21% casting haste. Of course given a choice I would take either of those over anything we have now on the weapon (probably swapping group reuse for gift and group perpetuality for stare). Even at a non-nerfed rate for either, it sounds reasonable.

Group strikethrough was actually an idea I had after seeing the monk epic. Scouts are complaining and have been since VP opened that hit rates are bunk. Our monk had a huge increase in dps (depending on the fight, 50% to 100%) from 50% strikethrough, and this would solve alot of melee complaints as well. My only concern is that if they didn't put it on any other weapons, perhaps they felt it was too powerful?

As far as the hate ideas, I think Senelin's idea of a hate position reduction buff is not bad, but maybe is not something that is a big enough benefit across the raid to have on the mythical. Our warlock rarely gets aggro with the proc on a mythical weapon, so clearly such a proc would be useful. Mechanics-wise, one could simply append a decrease by 1 hate position proc on harmonious link, for example (not being exactly the same, but accomplishing the same goal) or perhaps make it a totally separate buff. But like Duress noted, this does lack the "wow" factor because it is situational. I have yet to see aggro jacking of a massive level now that (almost) everyone in my guild has their mythicals, so while a few guildies will love it (wizards, rangers and non-mt assassins, and maybe the MT because he won't have to worry as much), that's not a widespread desire.

I don't think a group-hate nullification would be as useful as a single-target raid friend limited duration nullification, perhaps a clicky. As Linyen noted, there are some MT coercers. Since the coercer is unsure of his or her home, I just thought it'd be better to remove the group-requirement so that there's more flexiblity for the buff.

The only reason I think the immunity-proc-reactive is the least desirable is because it's simply a bit too complex. It's hard to proc a reactive cure, even when there's a delay on its cure to be on termination when you're having trouble casting due to control effects in the first place. The timing is really all off, and just too luck-based for my tastes. It's really similar to the templar AA, mana cure. It's nice in theory, but not all that useful in practice. Even with the power addition to it, it's still not enough.

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Renataki

Couple things. I'm in agreement that group reuse is a better deal than group perpetuality. Two reasons for this: Group reuse helps out more people. But secondly, no mythical should assume a certain AA spec. That's bread and butter design. I realize that 99% of all Coercers out there are specced Agility. But you can't require an Endline ability to fully use the epic. Just can't do it, from a fairness perspective.

The strikethrough I'm a huge fan of. Also good potential to mirror the mythical's altered Rapidity buff that Illusionists got.

Hate control not so much. We already do it well enough, and I think the real fixes here need to go into our base spell line.

And I can't tell, Revel, but I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey there. I'm not saying a reactive cure for the group. That would be horrible, ridiculous, and clunky. I'm trying to say give us a way to use our arsenal of spells on "Epic" stuff.

I'm saying that when we cast an offensive spell (though better wording should be a damage spell), we have a 9/12% chance to remove stun/mez/stifle/daze immunity (ie, the privileged status it has from being "Epic," or any other mob like a cockatrice that can't be mezzed, etc.) from the mob for 8.0s. At the end of the 8 seconds, if it happens to be stunned, mezzed, stifled, or dazed, then it's cured.

What this actually lets us do is randomly give us a window of opportunity to use our utility spells on raid mobs. However, the debuff can't overwrite itself, so you can't keep this up constantly, and since the mob is cured upon termination of the debuff, you can't chain stun/mez/stifle/daze it either.

Basically it just lets us use some control stuff on Raid Mobs. The power proc is small, I'll give you that. It's raidwide though (technically global). But the ability to drop control on a raid mob is pretty big, even if the timing on it is somewhat random. 12% chance on a damage spell is still fairly good odds of having that debuff come up.

EDIT: Quote didn't need to be that long, trimmed it to the relevant part I'm replying to.

Mendanbar

Too bad it's already been violated on other epics (Swash epic modifies Traumatic Swipe, end line from the str line).

And frankly, ignoring an awesome ability just because 1% of raiders (who this was designed for) don't do it, isn't enough to not justify putting it on there.

Hell, there are other epics that modify things that 1% of a class does in their REGULAR spells (Defilers don't really do dps, yet they seem to have completely spec'ed their mythical towards the notion that they supposedly do)... not taking advantage of one of the better spells that a massive majority of players of a class does just seems silly.

gungo

How about a 12% debuff proc that reduces melee damage of target. Think now of the templars repent spell they got in RoK. You ward the tank for the next hit up to 3328 damage at master 1. Any damage done would be reflected back to the npc up to that damage (3328). Its a reactive just like a coercer is known for and prevent and reflects the damage back. Very coercer like imho. Almost like you are coercing the mob to damage itself. Instead of the power reduction proc.

Its not quite overpowered as stone skin procs but it has the added bonus of adding damage to the coercers parse while reducing damage on the maintank.

RThe taunt mental proc could be changed to work on single target raidwide effects taunts and spells. Has a large mental damage proc AND increases taunt and or detaunts of target by 25%. Basically a super tandem type spell. (Or fuck it adds 15% to all base combat art damage.)

Duress

The aggro shield would be raid-castable. Thought I said that above!

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Duress

As I said before, this is strictly about the coercer mythical. Please, please, please do not muddy this thread with anything but mythical discussion.

While I wouldn't mind having the restriction for VM removed, I think, after using this weapon, seeing my raid perform, and looking at some ideas in this thread, I'd rather something that is going to be coveted by the raid -- not just me. My doing more dps doesn't negate the fact that my RL still doesn't know exactly where I belong on the raid -- I want the mythical weapon to help fix that.

A strikethrough buff would indeed be awesome, but I seriously doubt that the devs, who created that buff specifically for monks (?) are going to up and give it to coercers. But overall I like the idea.

I don't want to hear anything about control effects unless it's curing/prevent control effects on RAID MEMBERS, as Linyen suggested.

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Duress

I really like my perpet-LIKE idea. A spell haste buff is on our set gear, so it's in line with whatever the devs think we should be buffing in the group.

However, like I've said, and you said, reuse is more valuable than spell haste when it comes to raidwide appeal.

Maybe I'm retarded, but I don't see what's so hard about making a perpet spell where each level does something like:

Compelled Motion I, Lasts for 3 seconds - Increases Casting Speed by 5%, Reuse by 5%, Recovery by 5%
Compelled Motion II, Lasts for 2.8 seconds - Increases Casting Speed by 10%, Reuse by 10%, Recovery by 10%
Compelled Motion III, Lasts for 2.6 seconds - Increases Casting Speed by 15%, Reuse by 15%, Recovery by 15%
Compelled Motion IV, Lasts for 2.4 seconds - Increases Casting Speed by 20%, Reuse by 20%, Recovery by 20%
Compelled Motion V, Lasts for 2.2 seconds - Increases Casting Speed by 25%, Reuse by 25%, Recovery by 25%

This is what I know: everyone, everyone, everyone loves ROA. That spell does 33% redux on cast, recov, and reuse, and a single person gets it for 30 seconds every 1 minute 30 seconds. So...I fail to see how this wouldn't be a desired spell. And it's still not as much as ROA gives so...The thing I don't know offhand is realistically what everyone is already at for reuse, haste, recov, etc.

Like I said above, strikethrough would a great thing to have added to our arsenal, but I just don't see it happening. I have this feeling that it'll be something they throw around like candy on T9 gear as the new DA / +CA damage. But until then, this skill, AKAIK, was made for monks and I doubt they're just going to give that to us because we whined for it. But goddamn that'd be sweet.

In my OP, I thought I made it clear the hate nullification thing would be raid-castable. But whatevs!

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fengor

This thread put in my mind that giving group members a small chance to reflect damage would be in line with coercer. So possibly put either a group buff or a single target buff that gives Group member a 1-5% to reflect all incoming damage.

Duress

In theory, could be interesting BUT this is a reactive mechanic, and we see how well reactives work now.

Honestly, I would rather our mythical be a little more proactive and contribute to DPS output and/or hate management than be entirely contingent upon retardedly high avoidance and the RNG. Nevermind that a group buff like this is rather wasteful since the only people taking damage are the MT and, occasionally, the OT. And this buff wouldn't be a compelling reason to stick us in any tank group.

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Torrent

Looking at what the mythicals do now, it seems like SOE wants to cement us in MT/OT groups and have Illy's be the premier DPS group buffers. That's 2 possible groups for each of us, so in theory pretty fair/balanced.

So with that in mind, I'd favor making Impetus groupwide but instead add a 8% (uncontested) riposte to it. This would help a tank group, sure but also would help melee DPS survivablility, and improve their DPS situationally in the case of melee AOE's. Also, it would make putting a coercer *instead* of the second dirge in the OT group a viable option, because we'd have a real defensive buff to offer.

I like the idea of moving the mental damage on taunts off the weapon and onto Enraging Demeanor. I also like the idea of keeping the Mana Flow upgrade just the way it is. Though it would be nice if they gave us a chance to have VM up somehow in conjunction with it.

As far as the weapon proc: Making it a straight up group reuse proc on *hostile* spells could be a way to go with it. 10% on the fabled and 20% on the mythical would be in line with what we have now (since it'd be a proc and not a FT buff) They could take out the current 5% and 10% flat reuse, and then give us a useful 5% buff on the mythical to balance it out. It needs to be on hostile spells though, since even much of our DPS spells are currently classified as debuffs. I'm willing to bet that none of the 3 reactive damage spells are "spell attacks."

So, to summarize we'd have:

Groupwide Impetus with 8% riposte.
A group reuse proc on *hostile spells*
Upgraded Manaflow

Plus, 5% base damage instead of the 5% more power. Perhaps to compensate for the loss of VM. Though if they gave us this and a way to keep VM, that would be awesome too.