Vash

don;t forget to post on official forums also, supposedly they read those.

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Vashx 80 Coercer on Runneye/Nektulos
"The Diet Coke of Evil"...

"Just one calorie, not evil enough!"

Harowen

I'd like to see
Impetus - Groupwide, add 5% base hostile spell damage

Something for everyone, more for hybrids. Important to note that it needs to be base damage not just a spell damage like boost.
(I usually have at least 2-3 conc slots devoted to this, have had all 5 devoted to it in some situations.)

Alternately, add some other beneficial effect like -10% passive hate gain, proc for -1 hate position, or 20s buff of -40% hate gain. I prefer the hostile spell damage so as to result in higher desirability of receiving the buff.

Right click targetted, lasts until cancelled, near immediate reuse

Needs to be allowable raid wide not just in group and not just fighter, leaving it group only reduces desirability vs. expanding it. Buff needs to be of sufficient benefit result in appeal of coercer. Some options include

- 15% flat mana use reduction, 15% boost to something based on class subtype

Fighter: Taunts amount and taunts deal like amount of mental damage
Scout: CA damage, alternately reuse
Priest: ALL healing spells, not class specific only
Mage: Spell dam, alternately reuse

(Basically what coercive healing really should have been instead of the crap it is now.)

- 50% of mana spent is taken away from the coercer's power pool instead of the target's
- divert's stun/stifle/root/snare effects to apply to the Coercer instead of the target, who is immune. Coercer may not avoid through hostile spell immunity, etc.
- target and Coercer share single mana pool comprised of the total of both of them. Mana spent on non-% based effects is halved and divided equally. % based reductions apply only to the person spending it / gaining it. This leaves sprinting only depletes own pool, mana flow only restoring to self, etc. Items that restore xxx amount of mana would apply half the gain to each pool.

Mana flow - ok well if we really do have to have this as an effect, at least fix it to restore 10% instead of 60% or change Volatile magic to not have a mana requirement.

Perpetuality affects the group - discussed sufficiently in prior posts. Would prefer something that doesn't require specific AA lines, Guardian and Swashie mythical's already violate this precept though.

Proc - 9%/12%

Needs to have damage component to be in line with other mythical rewards.
Sub-component 10-20s duration group buff, select from

Immune hostile spell (single charge)
Immune non-damaging hostile spell (condition effects only)
Immune damaging hostile spell
High general reuse modifier, not limited to hostile/beneficial
Something else useful

And while I wouldn't mind seeing the conc slot removal for charm, that's really of primary use to the non-raiding coercer, so would be more appropriate to have included as part of the Fabled reward since the usefulness on a Raid is so close to zero as to be indistinguishable.

Sonorod

I used to work a lot with VM but all the power procs and other items in T8 have made the effort of staying under 30% not worth the reward. I think a change needs to happen to that ability. I've been grouped with more than one illusionist who is constantly trying to stay under 30% power but at about halfway through the zone or task give up.

I'm so-so on the idea of enhancing manaflow. I think instead a raidwide channeling would be nice. There are many times where regen is limited for more than one group and that extra push in power for the raid would be a good thing. I think the idea of an epic enhancing an aa ability is foolish since they are all optional (yes I know, what coercer, raiding or otherwise, wouldn't be using the enc aa tree, but the point is there none the less.)

As for the increased mental damage for a tank, I think I like the idea. If the increase is significant enough it could make having a coercer with MT much more desireable in any situation.

As for the 20% less power proc. it's hard to say if it will be realy useful. The fabled version has only proc'd once since I've had it (about a week now) and there have only been a handful of times where group power dropped below 50%. Bottom line I think, power is not an issue any more. The only time a reduction in power cost is handy is if a group member just got ressed and is lower on power to buff...but you are probably going to give them manaflow and call it good, no?

I'd rather see a proc that has a chance to dispell control immunities from an epic target or a 30 second buff where all control spells are doubled in length.

And final thought, since allowing charms in raids will never happen without either the mob charmed being pointless or it just being another way to make a coercer die on raids...how about Puppet master when used becomes a pet spell with no duration? meaning The first time you use it you create 3 avg pets that copy the targets abilities to some degree? It would have the flavor of charm, but more usefullness without the constant threat of death? When all the pets are dead, the spell recast timer begins and you can recast for 3 more pets with new abilities based on the intial target?

PS, I also like they idea of linking our powerpool to another raid or group member. Would give coercers a reason for having large pools again.

Torrent

This could be cool as one of the 2 non-proc features. Every weapon has a proc so it couldn't replace Siren's gift.

Make it modify Perpetuity like "If the coercer has Perp I active the group gets Compelled Motion I, and if the coercer has Perp II the group gets Compelled Motion II, etc. Where the spell haste component doesn't stack with Perp but the reuse component does.

Though maybe that's what you meant?

Mendanbar

Honestly, I think a lot of this would be a pretty terrible addition. Coercers are faced with one of two paths. Yes, their skills primarily are designed for the MT/OT group, but guess what, they're not good enough to be wanted by a majority of raid guilds in those groups, particularly the high-end ones. Of the guilds that have completed their mythicals as of this date, I don't know any that run regularly with a coercer in the MT group this expansion, but someone can feel free to clarify that if I'm wrong.

Back to the 2 paths. Because of that, that means coercers need to have their path laid out as either - A) They get so many tank enhancements that a raid would be stupid to not replace the swashbuckler or warden, or B) much better enhancements to non-tanks that would allow coercers to have a desired role in other groups.

Your riposte idea is well, weak for the tank, and terrible for the rest of the group. Ripostes only work on a target that is receiving direct damage. They work well for mobs that riposte incoming attacks from tons of players attacking them, but in order for a player to riposte, they need to be targeted by the mob and have that mob directly meleeing on them. A groupwide buff of 8% chance to riposte isn't good enough to convince a tank or offtank that they need a coercer. In addition, as a brigand that can sometimes be in the offtank group, I freaking hate the idea. Any class that can pull snap aggro would actually be WORSE off with this. I pull snap aggro, the mob targets me, I riposte, and now I have MORE hate to try to dump to lose aggro or for the tank to try to get through to regain aggro.

By the way, if the debuff has ANY kind of control effect or damage component, it's a "spell attack", not just a hostile spell.

Duress

That's not fair or balanced at all. If our raid had a second illusionist, I guarantee you that illusionist would be in the OT group for that upgraded rapidity buff (which helps the OT's damage output) and IA for the assassin (who transfers to the OT as necessary).

The illusionist weapon pretty much expanded their horizons. I see no fucking reason why ours can't at the very least address the very real problem that we really aren't NEEDED in any one particular group in the way that illusionists are a staple in the mage group and, coming soon, melee group.

How do you figure? Riposte is contingent upon you getting swung at (and dodging/blocking/parrying it). So the only person who benefits from this is the MT. And, god forbid, a scout pulls aggro and turns the mob to get swung at, why on earth would you want that scout to accrue more hate with riposte damage?

Of all the possible things to buff, that seems the most wasteful because so few people actually benefit from it.

A possibility, yes.

That'd be nice.

Interesting idea but who is this really benefiting but ourselves? We're not running in mage groups ever and this wouldn't help us replace the illusionist; scout groups have no need for spell base damage boosts; most priest classes are more melee-oriented excepting the fury...so...Again, I don't think it's enough to convince people to let us hang out with the mages.

Also interesting idea but with raids running with more than 2 tanks anymore, seems like we're guaranteed to fuck up transfers and hate generation for the moments we need it with something passive and/or proccing regularly like that.


Interesting, but to be honest, most classes (tanks excluded) want/see benefits to reuse. So, that said, may as well turn to the other suggestions about buffing reuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harowen - 50% of mana spent is taken away from the coercer's power pool instead of the target's

Interesting, but I don't think so. Seems easily exploitable with Siren's Flow being how it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harowen - divert's stun/stifle/root/snare effects to apply to the Coercer instead of the target, who is immune. Coercer may not avoid through hostile spell immunity, etc.

No. For a mythical weapon, would be better to have something that breaks through control effects or shields from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harowen - target and Coercer share single mana pool comprised of the total of both of them. Mana spent on non-% based effects is halved and divided equally. % based reductions apply only to the person spending it / gaining it. This leaves sprinting only depletes own pool, mana flow only restoring to self, etc. Items that restore xxx amount of mana would apply half the gain to each pool.

No. Would be disastrous on fights like VS, and seems overly-complicated without any real desirable gain. With Siren's Flow, we really shouldn't have any other power-managing procs.

Yes, IF and ONLY IF they don't put in other, more MYTHICAL procs.

Again, people, it wouldn't be sharing Perpetuality with the group because most people don't give a shit about spell haste. It'd be a brand new spell that works LIKE Perpetuality that would affect spell haste, reuse, and recovery...like the shaman's ROA spell.

Immunities are kinda pointless. Only person who should be getting hit is MT or OT on occasion, and there are a slew of classes that offer AOE avoidance for moments in which you might actually get hit. Seems redundant.

This is a Mythical-only thread, so please don't even breathe the word "charm". /twitch

A lot of this has already been addressed. Suffice it to say that I still argue that wiping control immunities on mobs is kinda pointless and a second power-management proc is redundant.

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Duress

What I actually originally meant was that we'd bestow this ability on group members...so they control their own fate, so to speak, by keeping up their own levels of the spell. We're basically turning them into little copycats of AGI-spec'd chanters.

However...IF it is more feasible for devs to code it as being contingent upon my own levels within Perpet...then I guess I'm ok with that.

Make sense?

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Renataki

I certainly see where you're coming from. You want the Mythical weapon to give you a purpose, to let the raid leader know where to put you. Frankly, I think that's wrong. I think your place in the raid should be determined by the fact that you're a coercer, not because you're wielding the mythical weapon. The weapon should help us do our role better, whatever that is. The problem is, as a class, we don't really have a role.

If you seriously want to look into fixing the mythical, then you should seriously look at fixing the class too. Otherwise you're bandaging the arm as we bleed out through our torso.

Of everything suggested here, I think Strikethrough on a Group Impetus is really the most feasible one. I still stand behind the fact that the tank proc should be on our spells, and we should have upgrades. Stuff like that will help us more than just fixing this. And while I understand that you want to get the mythical fixed, let's pretend that some of these suggestions will make it through. Suddenly, our class will be "balanced," because our epic has been revamped. Sadly that won't be close to true, but hey, that's how it'll be seen by the devs.

I'll agree on a few things. It shouldn't have anything to do with charm. A mana proc is probably redundant, but frankly not far out of line with what we actually do. And I'm sorry if you think the immunity removal is a bad idea, but fact is, it's something unique and does have some applications. I won't lie, I love the idea of group Perpetuality, but that's a pipe dream. It's not our bag of tricks - haste is for Illusionists, even if we both get that AA line. That's Sony's way of thinking, and that's why they'd completely shoot it down.

Mendanbar

She's done tons and tons of commenting about trying to get coercers upgraded as a whole. The fact that coercers need upgraded as a whole does not mean that you should neglect a quality epic as well. What you'll just end up with at that point is a shitty skill set AND a shitty epic, while other classes get good things in both.

Strikethrough while decent just reinforces the existing role of existing in the melee group or the tank group. Which, if they ever get around to fixing any hitrates will become somewhat negligible. It makes a huge difference currently for monks in VP, but not much at all in lower tier zones. A buff that does not solve a temporary problem but gives good long-term benefit would be more ideal (read - reuse/recovery/ca and spell haste)

And honestly, why is it a pipedream? Some of the effects on other epics are stunning. Raid-wide buffs of PotM and Blade Chimes would have been unbelievable a month ago. Same thing with spell double attack. Shoot for the moon, don't go "yeah, the house down the block is good enough."

Revel

Don't have much time atm, but a small comment: I'd love for them to address all coercer issues, but lets pick our battles here. They've let us linger on with minor issues (as they have with many other classes) but the epic has "fixed" many of the issues that other classes have had, including the dps "tiers," buff roles, spell issues and raid roles. But it did not do this significantly for us in our mythical (and a few other classes, but this is a coercer discussion).