Negotiation Strategy - Page 2

Codename · 02-25-2008, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimzor

Codename Cata in to a DoT? I guess it wouldnt be power based dmg?

Cata i have only used on one mob and thats in fens'Hydromancers!
Freckin Hydromancers! (Not seen content in raid yet to give it anymore thought other than it be de suck!) 1 MoB

That was what I was trying to say by "similar to asylum without the debuff"

Asylum isn't that much DPS, but it sure beats the hell out of cata as is.
You know, I think there's a level 80 ability it beats too... not sure!

Illuminator · 02-25-2008, 04:43 AM

The illusionist pet with the epic now becomes as ubiquitous as Beam, and not a "solo toy" like supposedly stated before. If you want parity, I feel you should put every single one of your chips into demanding that charm be a raid-useable ability. Demand that (a) raids provide mobs that can be charmed for the entire duration, (b) that said mobs do enough dps under charm to justify the bronco ride of keeping it charmed, and (c) that the concentration cost of the charm be eliminated somehow.

People used to diss using corpse candles against MO back in the day (assuming you could keep it alive, but still), and those same people can go fuck themselves. Nothing embodies the art of coercion better than the act of charm, and all the defects of reactive damage can be ignored if the charmed mob is powerful enough to compensate. There is absolutely nothing in principle that should interfere with this being the norm.

Raethe · 02-25-2008, 10:15 AM

The fact is though Lumi, that charming in raid isn't the answer to the coercer problems - just look at what they did recently to charmed pets because of the PVP issues - pet damage got nerfed to hell.

I don't think the devs know what to do with coercers and after seeing how they treated us during beta (about broke my head against the wall that was the original puppetmaster) I highly doubt that all the logical arguing in the world is going to make anything happen.

The mythical is no less or more than I expected we'd receive - it has nothing on it that's overly useful.

Duress · 02-25-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raethe

The fact is though Lumi, that charming in raid isn't the answer to the coercer problems - just look at what they did recently to charmed pets because of the PVP issues - pet damage got nerfed to hell.

I don't think the devs know what to do with coercers and after seeing how they treated us during beta (about broke my head against the wall that was the original puppetmaster) I highly doubt that all the logical arguing in the world is going to make anything happen.

The mythical is no less or more than I expected we'd receive - it has nothing on it that's overly useful.

Agreed.

As cool as it might be to have charm viable (not just possible but worthy of being used in spite of the risk of having a fucking epic loose on a cloth-wearer and whoever else pisses it off when it breaks), it still doesn't satisfactorily address our desirability (read: utility) in a raid capacity.

Nevermind that we'd be asking them to overhaul their raid mechanics just to make the smallest population of players "on par" with their counterparts...Even as a paying customer of three separate accounts, I don't think that's a reasonable request.

From a biz perspective, it seems like it'd be a waste of their very limited resources when there are a number of things they could work on that might have the same effect (increased dps) or do something equally beneficial (increased utility). Them putting together a simple groupwide buff would take less time and do more for raiding coercers than putting in the hours figuring out how to balance raid mobs and charming.

(And, I know I may get flamed for this, but the pet nerfage seemed like a bug fix, not an actual nerf. Am I the only person who thought it ... ludicrous? that casting pets ALWAYS did insane damage compared to their melee counterparts? Seemed like we were always benefiting from retarded or fubared resistances than thoughtfully-designed npcs and combat mechanics.)

No, the devs don't know what to do with us, and it makes me sad panda.

Trepan · 02-25-2008, 04:30 PM

Charming on raids is a no win situation. It doesn't matter if its good 90% of the time, if the pet gets loose ONCE and wipes the raid, thats the end of the RL letting you use it, period, and rightly so.

As for the pet nerf: Meh. Pets is pets now. Casters are still > melee in my book (less time sitting around waiting for them to heal, or chaining in a new pet that the old pet damaged before it died) even if their damage isn't as good.

We and the devs are in a tough spot. The base combat mechanics make us either gods or baggage with very little in-between, and the devs have decreed Baggage is better for the overall game than Gods. Still, there HAS to be a class"ish" ability they can give us to make us useful in raids. We're fine for groups, atm and doing stupid solo tricks still makes me chuckle.

Um, how about an ability that makes an epic cast one of it's buffs on the tank. Or an ability to convince the encounter that particular members of the raid (single target, takes concentration some limited duration) are members of their force and should not be attacked [Keeps the Healers out of AoE effect and off the hate list until it drops]. Or even one jedi mind trick "This is not the raid force you are looking for" to bypass a single encounter who would stay non agro for the rest of the instance as long as they are not social'd or AoE'd (but would still come if the Boss calls them).

Mioawara · 02-27-2008, 06:08 PM

Ops. Posted to the wrong thread.

Mioawara · 02-28-2008, 05:20 PM

Back on topic. We have very little in the way of tools available to us. Our small numbers work aginst us. Pissing us off or ignoring us costs SoE less than ignoring or angering some group of toons people play in droves. Not to mention that "balancing" us will make us more valuable on raids. If that = some other class gets less invites, someone is gonna get pissed.
We could spam, we can strike, we can cancel accounts or betray. These are things we control. Our own actions. We can't give these actions weight however.
Realistically speaking I don't think we have power. We would need others to be willing to take our part as well. I just don't think people will take our part. They will be too busy chasing their own agenda.

Dragonmoon · 02-29-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renataki

Alright, making a separate thread here to respect Duress' wishes and not shit all over the Mythical Fix thread with "non-related" stuff.

So I'd like to point out where I'm coming from with the whole "fix Coercers not just the epic attitude."

Consider this as a yearly salary negotiation. Nevermind the fact that they've totally ignored us for way longer than a year.

This is totally working under the assumption that they're even going to listen, but let's run with it. Because that's what all of our hopeful threads are assuming.

We go in to try and negotiate our raise. If anything gets done, anything gets agreed upon, we're still going to be stuck with it for a long time. So here are the risks we run:

1) Ask for way too much and be totally ignored/shot down. Umm, sounds familiar.
2) Ask for not enough and get it, but then realize we could have and should have done way better.
3) Focus exclusively on the vacation package, and even if we get it, later realize that the extra time off does us no good since we don't have the salary to put it to use.

The ideal strategy is instead:

4) Understand the mind of our boss, what our boss expects from us, and what compensation we should actually have. And then negotiate for that.

Translation for the metaphorically challenged:

1) We start "shooting for the moon" and it just gets ridiculous, and of course the devs ignore us. Which by the way they are doing one hell of a job of it. Great work Devs.
2) We don't try hard enough and don't adequately address all the issues, but we get fixed enough that devs think it's done. Hell, I'd take this at this point. Better yet, I'd be happy if they'd just stop nerfing us. To hell with fixing us.
3) We focus exclusively on the epic, and we actually fix it. But the coercer as a whole is still hurting. Once again, devs think this is hunky-dory. Too hard for the Devs to even concider. Plus there are too many "important" classes ahead of us that need thier's fixed.

4) We try and piece together a theme based on the abilities our class has, come up with something appropriate, and then present it to the devs. Assuming they're going to listen, may as well give them the whole package. Not as a laundry list of grievances and complaints, but a well thought out list of what should change and why. The why is the easy part... Because you have constantly screwed us for two years running. The well thought out list is a little harder, there is so many things now screwing us, not sure anyone would know where to start.

Alright, I'm done ruining everyone else's day with my logic. If anyone feels the need to attack me for my corporate-culture metaphor, or you just think I'm a moron in general, please post in this thread.

Sorry in my conspiracy theory mode for awhile. I think that one, with all the new super duper power proc items running around, the coercer becomes even less desired in raids. Two, they never respond to any of our concerns and normally nerf us with just the oposite. And three, I truely to think a big shake up of some classes are close to becoming a reality. Besides Coercers, look how they are constantly (at least in the last few months) been nerfing the SK's also. I believe that some classes are about to be dust, fossils, things of the past. They have to be since they are becoming useless in current gameplay.
Look, in the past we have been for the most part nice about our complaints. Many people (which unfortunately I can't include myself) have presented some really great ideas and recommendations for changes. Everything has been ignored and still no word from the Devs on any of this. Absolutely no response...none....zip.
To use your analogy, imagine going in to talk to your boss (who you have never met before today) about a raise or more vacation time and have him/her just sit there, not even look at you, and not respond to any comment you made. After you give your whole presentation, still nothing... just you and them sitting there, no eye contact, no conversation, no nothing. What is your next move? Or is it truely a real move like to another job?
And no, I'm not attacking you corporate-culture way of thinking, I just don't think it applies to SoE. In most corporations, the ones making the decisions normally care what the end uses think and desire from thier product. With SoE, they couldn't give a shit what you think.

Sycho · 03-01-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trepan

Um, how about an ability that makes an epic cast one of it's buffs on the tank. Or an ability to convince the encounter that particular members of the raid (single target, takes concentration some limited duration) are members of their force and should not be attacked [Keeps the Healers out of AoE effect and off the hate list until it drops]. Or even one jedi mind trick "This is not the raid force you are looking for" to bypass a single encounter who would stay non agro for the rest of the instance as long as they are not social'd or AoE'd (but would still come if the Boss calls them).

That sounds awesome, in theory at least

Vash · 03-02-2008, 09:53 AM

i charmed a mob outside vp to duel one of the assasins in my guild. (was within 1% btw!) well when i died charm broke and well it wiped my whole guild lol. almost a guild kick for it. Its funny playing a classs when there are so many things you can do /go wrong that caan cause you to be a harm to yourself and others. hmm thats a good slogan:L

Coercers : "A harm to ourselves and Others!"

if we are going to be buffbots take away illy haste buff and make our dps buff dps AND haste.. if we are teh dirges of the mage world give us all the melle buffs. also that spell temp prc spel must go as well that should have been ours fromt he start. Or our own Cacophony of blades temp buff iits so unbalanced.