Midnyte

Ummm I guess by your response you are thnking that I am trying to say that those are our only problems, when in fact I am trying to say that we are being further striped of our role as utility by items from quests, collection quests, and heroic instances. Not to mention all the shit tinkerers can make these days.

Apollodon

you make it sound like power proc items are new, and the stuff that makes us useless isnt the low end stuff the avatar stuff really means you dont need a second or any mana regen in group

guilds dont need ceorcers now

doing a mob the first time we are usefull
doing it every week we can easly be replaced for better raid dps or whatever

i feel like we are the bottum of the list, the last fat kid to get picked at kick ball

Midnyte

I agree with you 100%, but power proc items didn't proc as often or for nearly as much as they do these days. I was was trying to get at was these newer power proc items which are doing the higher proc rate and the increased return on power (like the belt with the "pondwash" proc)only further digs our grave deeper.

Linyen

monk = coercer = sk = bruiser = paladin ... well, paladins are kinda usefull here and there, but a good guard will blow them out usually

we're just part of the useless crowd...we can be replaced by other similar classes and the raid will do BETTER.

A full fix to coercers is needed, and a balance to the other classes...atm its BS that we've gotten slowly pushed into a corner with the others...

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Linyen Darkmoon`Rage, Leader of Deaths Door
Everfrost, 80 Coercer

"Because Im too lazy to betray"
Co-er-cer(noun) - To be coerced into thinking you will get anything exceptional.
www.deaths-door.com
Fix Coercers in 08' !!

Mendanbar

Unfortunately, this poll isn't particularly true. I don't disagree that coercers skills were designed to put them into the MT group. My point was that a majority of top-end guilds decide not to run coercers in the MT group because the bonuses they give just aren't good enough to secure a spot over other characters.

Defiler/Templar - aren't going anywhere.
Guardian - obviously not going anywhere
Dirge - necessity, they give way way better buffs for the MT than you do.

Hate transfer slot - Swash/Assassin - Swash gives awesome self transfer and helps with aoe encounters, obviously... Assassin gives awesome single target dps and adds apply toxin to the tank - this skill can't be underestimated, a master of this skill hits about for the same damage per tick that expert's hemotoxin does (though granted, it procs a bit less)

Third healer (warden probably, though on occasion fury) - With how hard end game content hits and the need for constant cures and etc, another healer is far more useful.

Uh oh, all the slots are now filled. I guess that was my main point. Yes, you transfer hate, yes, you buff healing, but you don't transfer as well as an assassin or swash, and while you buff healing, your healbuffs don't add near as much as another healer. Particularly in the case of cures. The best role for coercers were as a patch bit of extra dps in the MT group - filling in the remaining slot in aggro transfer and passive hate gain, helping out the healers slightly when healing wasn't as much of a necessity.

Content hits too hard for that now, and so your class has for the most part lost its slot int he MT group in favor of more specialized ones.

I think a far more telling poll would be to ask the top guilds on each server whether they run a coercer in the MT group or not (if they even have a coercer). I know that CL doesn't. I'm pretty certain AM doesn't, I think I remember seeing Revel see that. Get the other top-server guilds to get their coercers to chime in here and say where they are placed in a raid.

Torrent

I am in the MT group as a coercer.

My guild is a little quirky with our group setup though: Zerker, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Me. With a zerker MT the DPS buff ends up being significantly more hate, plus the group is really hot for melee buffs so on easy fights, I'm specced STR and wade in there. On hard fights I stay ranged but in those cases a swash would have to joust, which is worse for DPS than just staying put. The zerker and I end up being in the top 5 parse-wise more often than not. Me, because I'm probably the best geared mage in our guild. And him because of zerker-uberness.

I expect to see Veeshan's Peak really soon, and my mythical in a month or two, but we are not "elite". We could definitely be more optimized. Seen coldly, there's a strong case for moving me out for a swash if my DPS ever slips below.

Right now, though I wear a 4th pond wash belt. And the healers seem to notice when I take it off for BCG. Because of my hate gain and misc mana regen, the dirge doesn't have to run hate or mana. So, basically I = 2 spare concentration slots for the dirge, and that (barely) would put me ahead of a swash in utility.

Mendanbar

Honestly, I think the reason that you're there is due to other players' weakness. A coercer should never be in the top 5 unless there are 4 other dps and the rest of the raid are guardians, shadowknights and healers.

A good swashbuckler should be double your DPS too, honestly, there shouldn't be a question in the transfer department.

Antrig

Mendanbar's class breakdown is exactly the case in my guild. With swashy's increase in transfer with their epic and vastly higher dps from swashy or assassin, there is no place in the MT group

Torrent's guild dpsers need to be sacked if a coercer can approach top 5 and the MT dirge doesn't need to run Hyrans.

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Illusionist/Paladin/Dirge/Templar/Scholar

Cenarius

Take 24 People which know they're class.. take your 24 "wish" classes (equal equipped), build your raid and finally if you got the choice i don't believe there is a coercer in MT group anymore.

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Antrig

Agree. The 4 bards and 3 illusionists need to fit somewhere, so you'll find the coercers over with the rangers, bruisers and most plate tanks - on the bench.

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Illusionist/Paladin/Dirge/Templar/Scholar