MT Group = Coercer's Group? Vote! - Page 3

Duress · 03-01-2008, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antrig

Agree. The 4 bards and 3 illusionists need to fit somewhere, so you'll find the coercers over with the rangers, bruisers and most plate tanks - on the bench.

You must have missed the memo: they're fixing arrows and throwing in an extra special something to rangers in a coming update.

Revel · 03-01-2008, 04:38 AM

I agree with what's been said about the coercer's role and their poor fit for most groups, but I would like to point out in a battle of hate, I can actually pull as much hate as a swashy on most mobs, even if they're doing more dps than me. The mechanic is simple; just throw out stuns. Even if the mob is currently immune, or if the stun is of a type that doesn't affect epics, the threat still applies the same. Via this method I can beat a swashy who's taunting even on the hate position list.

Jhoram · 03-01-2008, 07:37 AM

Yeah, what Revel said.. and every spell is a carrier for procs, so thats even more hate if they fire. On a side note, with threat transfers, if the tank dies, does all the hate we gave to him then come back to us? because Ive noticed if mine dies, Im always second on the list. (At which point i have to decide in a split second whether to thoughtsnap the mob and break the encounter, or take the death and recover)

Flipmode · 03-01-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Channel is useful for any fight over 5 minutes which is most of them tbh (except venril sathir). It guarantee's the MT grp with unlimited power, no matter how hard people DPS and/or heal. I can't say the same about illusionist's in all fights.

Actually, Thought snap is perfect for mem-wipe mobs, when the MT is stuned and/or when someone else spikes too much DPS. Saying thought snap is only useful with nub MT's is laughable tbh. It just reitterates why coercers >> illusionists for hate.

The coercer as a whole bring 10 times what an assassin brings in the MT grp

minus -6% hate for all non-fighters,
unlimited power,
+16% crit heals,
coersive healing (+15% to heals, +15% oto ward, +1 trigger count)
+78% DPS buff,
guaranteed 7 sec clicky hate and very good hate transfer).

I will have to disagree with having the assassin replace the Coercer.

I would rather have templar, warden, defiler/mystic with the group +16 crit and one with coersive healing (and dehate someone in the raid by 22% hate) than the swash/assassin or alternatively the swash instead of the defiler/mystic for weak hitting bosses.

Coercer > Illusionist for hate and mana regen (and coersive healing).. everything else the illusionist can do better. But all you need is hate and mana in MT grp tbh.

Sounds like you are reaching a bit for the coercer. Groups dont have power issues anymore with the obscene amount of power gear this expansion. Please stop acting like that is so important. And you SERIOUSLY underestimate the power of the illusionist savante spell.

In regards to hate, you will not displace the dirge. Their buffs are better and so is their hate buff. You will not displace the swash/assasin because the generate more hate than you to transfer. Your only hope is to hope you have a non min/maxing raid guild to let you come along. Sad but true.

Cenarius · 03-01-2008, 10:53 AM

i got one question, how do you know that you generate more hate than a swashbuckler? Just wondering...

Revel · 03-01-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhoram

Yeah, what Revel said.. and every spell is a carrier for procs, so thats even more hate if they fire. On a side note, with threat transfers, if the tank dies, does all the hate we gave to him then come back to us? because Ive noticed if mine dies, Im always second on the list. (At which point i have to decide in a split second whether to thoughtsnap the mob and break the encounter, or take the death and recover)

Nah, we don't get any extra hate. I believe when the first hate position is changed through death or someone taking aggro, the other hate positions also get re-evaluated and changed based on current threat amounts. Even with the decreased threat amount that was transferred, you ended up second.

For me, I'm usually 3rd or 4th after some of the heavier dps unless I actively work on increasing my position.

Easiest way to know if you've got a higher hate position is on a mob that takes hate position into account. Taskmaster in VP is one such mob, and there are a few others who do effects based on hate position. Death of the MT is another (not recommended, duh) way.

Torrent · 03-01-2008, 01:46 PM

I've wondered about "hate dumps" when the transferee dies as well. When a pet dies, the pet's owner gets all the hate the pet used to have in one big clump. So, it could make sense that tranfers might do something similar.

But coercers do have large amounts of invisible hate from the stuns and power drains. It also spikes as the DPS is jousted out, which is nice in a transfer. We can keep steady DPS going even while ranged, and with the STR line can put out a little extra when no joust is required. Even when the swash is ahead of me on the parse, I put out more hate.

Of course, even 2nd or 3rd on the hate list doesn't mean you put out the 2nd highest hate. The scouts can shake off a lot more hate than we can, unless we waste gear slots on detaunt procs. When I have hid out in the DPS group, I'll pull aggro even at around 8th in the parse. The only time I don't is when I can transfer on the MT.

Swash transfer is 16-20%. Ours (at a master) is 17.1% with a 17% hate gain boost. So, considering the boost we offer also boosts the transfer we give, our transfer is also effectively 20%. If I didn't have the master of ED, I'd be a lot more likely to betray, so the adept 3 amounts most folks work with don't matter. ;)

I personally believe the hate transfer change was the best thing that happened to coercers in years. When you throw in thought snap to the equation, I do think hate management with a skilled coercer (with master ED) is comparable to that with a skilled swash. So, then you just need to compare the utility of the 2 classes. Advanced warning from them vs random semi-useless power junk, a DPS buff and coercive healing from us.

My conclusion from that is the coercer, just barely, is worthwhile in the MT group.

Mendanbar · 03-01-2008, 02:45 PM

I honestly think you're both wrong. I don't think you're anywhere near the top of the hate list, I think what you're experiencing is burst hate which the swash is incapable of. Swashbucklers have ZERO spike dps spells. A coercer on the other hand can generate hate fast as crap with some spells on the mob. Overall however, while you have stuns and stifles and etc... I think you're all ignoring the fact that with essentially EVERY ca, a swashbuckler is dropping a debuff on the mob for significant additional hate. It's why they're the best transfer, hands down. Assassins are more questionable, and I might agree that you're close to them on the overall transfer because of your control abilities, then again, assassins get way better spike damage than you guys do too, so I dunno :P

But really, you just don't put out enough dps to make the hate transfer worthwhile (edit: as a replacement, not as a supplement). Like I said, a good swash should be roughly double your dps (4k-6k depending on fight vs. 2k-3k), plus their debuffs puts them miles ahead of any transferring you could do, control effects or not.

Having a coercer in the mt group probably works just fine in T1-3 content, but from T4 on, it just doesn't make sense.

Edit: continuing that parenthetical thought above... another thing to petition as a coercer aside from your own fixes as necessary would probably be the abolishment of mob double attacks and huge spike damage from them. Heavy damage in the form of more consistent damage over time would probably help your role out in the MT group as a third healer might not be necessary - patch healing from external groups would probably cover it.

Mendanbar · 03-01-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torrent

Swash transfer is 16-20%. Ours (at a master) is 17.1% with a 17% hate gain boost. So, considering the boost we offer also boosts the transfer we give, our transfer is also effectively 20%. If I didn't have the master of ED, I'd be a lot more likely to betray, so the adept 3 amounts most folks work with don't matter. ;)

Swash master is 18, so on direct transfer, they beat you. The passive gain is alright, but only 8% of it is used. The dirge gives 42% passive gain, and the cap is 50, and the dirge won't ever be dropped from the MT group.

Additionally, the swash role was just reinforced with the mythical epic, as they get an additional 8% added to their transfer, pushing them in at 26%.

That would still leave room for a coercer in the MT group to fill 17.1% of the remaining 24% transfer cap, and that 8% passive, but the problem is that mobs just frankly hit too hard above T3, so the coercer's role gets abandoned for a third healer in favor of min-maxing, simple as that.

Dragonmoon · 03-01-2008, 03:01 PM

Back to the original question though. I'm in the MT Group or not at all. My guild carries too many Illusionists (one for each of the other groups) so I'm not wanted in any of the other groups. Well I take that back, I would probably be accepted if we ever had a "rejects" group. You know, 1 SK, 1 Pally, 1 Bruiser, 1 Coercer, 1 Monk (since you can't hold on to a mob anymore) and I would hope for pure sympathy a healer.