Mendanbar

I hate you for making me do this, but I actually have to agree with Illuminator. The only portion of coercer gameplay that's not retardedly broken in comparison to other classes is solo/some grouping, so that's probably why you're not concerned. Even then, they're working hard to fix that by nerfing charm because of pvp mechanics? haha?

You're either in denial about the state of affairs or you just don't have the experience raiding any challenging content that would require a guild to take serious consideration as to what 24 characters they'd need to bring to kill the "harder stuff". There is not a class that is having more issues about whether or not they are "needed" on a raid. While plenty of other classes can be considered "unnecessary" (sk, bruiser, zerker as of this expansion), Coercers are the ones that have been that way for the longest, which just makes the problems all the more exacerbated.

God, I feel dirty for agreeing with him.

Xavion

Well, you certainly have the right to put yourself out there like that and agree with him, but I am still trying to figure out how you can make some of the claims about the class that you just did. I have been over this before a ton on other threads, it gets tiring constantly repeating myself so I'm not going to do the whole page-long repost here.

As for my own experiance, I am mainly running group instances now because I don't have the work schedule for raiding anymore, but I was MT Coercer for my guild for a long time and I am very versed in what you need to succeed in a raid, so please don't assume you know what I know. I'm in denial of nothing... I know what the game entails and what my class is capable of. I never "denied" anything....not once have I said that the class didn't have issues...I just said they have been exaggerated.

Yes, Coercers actually have a limited role in raid parties as power regen as there is not much to be mezzed in most raids, but there are many classes as you pointed out that are useless, and to me zerkers and bruisers are the more useless than any of them...I have seen SK's make damn good MA's, and most people put group power regen above the extra dps that one more fighter class would give you, so to me, they are not the most useless as you put it. They also have decent enough spells to help in a pinch like thought snap and amnesia. No, they may not be used too often, but they are there if needed. All I'm saying is the term useless is far too undeserving. Oh, and there's nothing wrong with charm, mine works just fine and hardly breaks on me at all anymore.

I am not even going to get into how insignificant the extra contribution really is that Illys provide over Coercers in a raid, because let's face it, it's still mainly a regen role and they are not uber dps either, and I don't really do the whole "attacking other classes" like some people. I have many alts I enjoy myself, and I respect what people choose to play. Whether or not a person chooses a class which I don't personally enjoy has no concern to me whatsoever... it doesn't affect my gaming experience so I don't make it an agenda to gripe about other classes I gave up on like some people here do... seems a bit childish.

__________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alts = What you do in your spare time
Spare Time = The time in your life that is not spent playing your main
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Illuminator

Ever single class has its ability to shine in solo/group settings because they don't have arbitrary rules and restrictions, or repeated design deficiencies that raid combat has. But for someone to be posting the way AngryCoercer did, leaves me no serious reason to believe he's complaining about anything other than coercer role in raid combat.

IMO, if you're a raiding coercer then you're just dragging your feet until you become a raiding illusionist. Clearest handwriting on the wall: endgame coercers are discouraged and cockblocked in every way under the sun from being able to charm on raids, but what do the endgame illusionists get? A concentration-free pet. I loved playing my coercer through T7 raids like anyone, but eventually a person has to step back and take stock in things as they really are.

And when I repeatedly talk about merging the two enchanter classes it goes with the evolving assumption that no abilities whatsoever will be lost. It would be like another tab on the achievements window, and you could use your AA mirror to choose your poison as needed. Make the pet skill perform a charm when summoned on an enemy target, or perform a personae summon when targetting nothing. Do you want PBAE deaggro mez or PBAE damage stun? And on and on. Void of any NGE connotation, and harmless. It might take more than a lunch break to design right but when done correctly everyone comes out a winner.

__________________


Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve.

Duress

Did you get a prescription for Sense pills or something? <3

Many RAIDING (RAIDING, I said RAIDING. stfu about HEROIC CONTENT as that's not relevant in this thread, kthx) coercers will admit they're either lazy or too stubborn to betray, i.e. "dragging their feet." So on that point, I agree -- people have read the proverbial writing, understand it...it's just a matter of time/willpower to actually make the switch.

But I disagree on the charm point. Coercer probs extend far beyond charm. And because I have so little faith in them addressing coercer problems EFFECTIVELY, I have even less faith in them consolidating the classes SUCCESSFULLY.

My consolation is having a CL Wormhole, with which I can escape gay Qeynos and gay Nathan Ironforge, and hang out on the EFP docks. =P

__________________

Mendanbar

No, you honestly really did prove that you don't know what you're talking about here. T7 and before raiding isn't remotely comparable to T8 raiding. Coercers have been repeatedly marginalized away from getting a slot in T8 raiding,a nd usually the only places they're allowed is when they're exceptionally good players. Even then, a lot of guilds are turning around and saying "why have a good coercer, when we could have more dps and way better buffs out of the same player playing an illusionist?" and pressuring their coercers to betray.

Apparently you've seen some pretty terrible illusionists. A good illusionist and a good coercer's dps should be practically on a 1.5:1 to 2:1 ratio. That is, you should almost double your dps as an illus. Coercers in a good raid guild will do based on my own observations and on claims in these forums anywhere from 2k-2.5k. It is NOT uncommon for Illus to get 4-5k in the right group especially with their mythical. As for buffs, are you kidding me? Illusory Arm? Time Compression, Tandem, Rapidity (which is even MORE awesome with the mythical?)

Amnesia is the one really useful spell I will still grant coercers. Thought snap in a high dps raid can be more trouble than it's worth. It's supposed to grant the tank a chance to get hate back, but the typical dps pattern from a high-end raid guild is as follows: dps the shit out of the mob -> oh crap, the tank lost aggro, cut dps to like 75% (if that) -> okay, the mob has turned back to the tank, that MUST mean he's back up on the hate list, right? Resume full burn. It's an extremely false sense of security and will often just result on the mob re-peeling as soon as the spell wears.

Even coercer's precious power regen role has been made pretty much worthless. Between 2-3 group power proc'ing items, and the illusionist epic, which gives a TON of power to their group in addition to all of the dps it adds to them, the power regen role has been marginalized as well. Sure, they made the coercer epic awesome at power regen, but at the same time, they punish the coercers for using it by screwing up any ability they had to do dps (as though they "really" had any, BARDS are beating coercers now in some cases and both bards have WAY better utility) using volatile magic. Brilliant.

You can call it childish all you want, but as a soloer/grouper you are experiencing a FAR different game as a coercer than the rest of people who raid seriously and flat out typically aren't wanted, or are simply a concession to have the player, not the raid-role. The class doesn't do good dps, it's utility is marginal especially compared to the other "buffer" classes, and it's apparent to most everyone except for a few in denial. An ideal setup for most guilds now is 2 troubs, 2 dirges, 2 Illusionists, no coercer.

Raethe

I refuse to betray - I've put too much time and effort into my coercer. Broken and all, I just can't do it.

I do agree with you - coercer problems are way beyond simply charm being broken. I really think the statement comes in that SOE has no clue where to take coercers, or what they've decided on what they want coercers to be is so undeniably slacktastic that no player wants to be that.

It's just sad in that so many classes have gotten "fixed" and yet coercers kinda hang out praying and relieved when we only get a minor screwjob with our 80 spell and mythical.

Xavion

Ok, this reply is to Mend and Ill.

First off, I wasn't trying to start a flame war, I just get tired of hearing that the class sucks and needs to go away. Ill, that is the first time I have seen you propose a merge like that, so if that truly is your stance I could live with it... from what you have always said in the past I figured you just wanted Coercers to go away completely and everyone be Illys. However, the fact of the matter is this is SOE we are talking about, and any decent ideas on a class merge will either never happen, or not get done the way we would like to see it. I really don't see them allowing one chanter class two pet options like that to be honest, but it is a decent thought.

Mend, no I have not raided in Kunark yet, except for Trak and I don't really think that counts. So maybe things are as different as you say, but the difference you point out in the ratios you provided for Coercer vs. Illy DPS to me is not a completely accurate average. Most raid Coercers I have seen aside from myself don't spec their AA's to utilize the extra procs on their reactives...and as we have seen in RoK there are many mobs in the instances that get hit big with Cataclysmic Mind and the like...I would expect the same from many raid nameds. Yes, the Coercer dps is expected to be quite lower than the Illys, but my point in my previous post was that against raid mobs it's almost insignificant due to the fact that that particular raid position (support/regen) isn't intended for dps anyways, so worry about maximizing dps from your other classes instead. /shrug

__________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alts = What you do in your spare time
Spare Time = The time in your life that is not spent playing your main
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mendanbar

The problem is that the imbalance has become so great that Illusionists can spec to buff their group AND still put out those kinds of numbers. That's why it's so retarded. Ask one of the coercers that switched how much their dps jumped in the first couple days, I think you'd be astonished. It's essentially about the extreme lack of balance and how unfair it is that illusionists are repeatedly made better at buffing and better at dps, and coercers are thrown skills that are essentially useless.

<EDIT> I shoudl add here that there are PLENTY of coercers that spec for dps in raid guilds... using volatile magic and the like </EDIT>

T7 - Possession - totally awesome!
T8 - Puppetmaster - totally awesome!
Ability on the epic - mana flow that breaks the coercer's dps, totally awesome!

Except that casters in groups can buy a collection quest and that item alone can keep the group up in power if it's on 2 people. If you're on a SUPER power consumption group, throw an illusionist in, or put a new avatar earring on, and it will NEVER run out of power.

The illusionist's power proc is simply that amazing - 2.4k a minute or so (on top of whatever other crap that people have). This expansion is all about power proc'ing between group power procs, item single-target procs, replenishing heals, etc. So pretty much a coercer's "primary role" in a raid (I mean really, what other activity would theoretically take that much of their time that is (or was) unique to them) has been usurped by a few pieces of gear. That's pretty sweet.

Senelin

This is not an accurate assumption.

__________________

Xavion

Yeah, unfortunately those exist, and unfortuantely they proc a lot of sarcasm.

I never use Possesion, I only use Puppetmaster as a filler when spamming during long fights, and the Epic's ability as we have stated on other posts is less than spectacular, but hey, who cares about breaking dps when it sucks anyways right? (that is my impression of a dev btw).

Anach, if that is a bad assumption on my part about the raid mobs then that is unfortunate as well. I was elated to go into some of the instances and see myself jump over the wizzy on the parse on fights like Impaler Tzulig. More mobs SHOULD actually use their power like the players do (what the hell is it there for, just to look fancy?) Same goes for how other mobs can cast spells without needing any power (first named in MC... what a fucking craptastic update that was....let's nerf the end boss so she's easy as hell to beat, but let's make the first named harder than the end boss... SOE logic again). Power should mean something to the mobs dammit.

__________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alts = What you do in your spare time
Spare Time = The time in your life that is not spent playing your main
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------