Arani

Yeah I've seen the Contrsuct parse higher zonewide than our netherlord wich when used right is a good dps dumby... I mean compared to the swarm type pets and I guess broodlings for "massive damage".

I would never say an illy or coercer for that matter doesn't push great dps!

Warlock Broodlings is a great example of a dumbfire that yes gets whacked on ae but even with recasting its still top 3 on our dps/efficiency chart on long fights... now I understand the point about not actually wanting more dps but wanting more MT utility... I was just posing ideas. The thing with shaman dogs is their pets are great utility giving group haste group wards and more and its controllable you just gotta not let it die via ripost or DS... but again just ideas for utility.

Illusionists seem to have enhancing speed as a niche with time comp haste and double attack... coercers hate and heal bonus via thoughtsnap, CH etc... perhaps single target increased aggression, or a reactive heal mod single target that when the priest who casts a heal spell has a % chance to trigger an effect like Manacloak.

another idea could be physical aggro transfer, instead of up untill canceled or a de-aggro: a single target transfers 20% of casters current aggro to the tank. Since its not up all the time it would not hamper the other xfers on him and and not be effected by the caps. Make it refresh every 1.5 or 2 mins or so. It would give coercers a reason to be in there since you can push unstable dps for a good 30-60-90s into the fight hit your dump and continue on.

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Cyllie

WTF makes you think we don't have a role now? Any class is replaceable by other class, coercers are hardly hurting for usefulness in a raid. If any class is irreplaceable its the dirge, every other class can be replaced by at least one other class, a dirge its really kinda hard to do that with, but even they are not required.

What I would like to see is people to stop whining about how useless their class is and learn how to use what you have instead.

If anything needs to be changed about a coercer, its the insane hate they create, it doesn't fit the dps we put out. Any other mage will hit 2k dps and generate the same damn hate a coercer will with 1k.


1. SOE doesn't design your MT groups, your raid leader does, and different raid lead have widely different ideas as to what will work in them.


2. So your INT and AGI buffs are useless? What about your mitigation buffs, or your power buff? What about your mana regen? Your power feed? Your DPS buff? Your Dehate? Based on how you spec you might also have a group dehate and a very nice heal crit buff. Here in case you don't understand:

INT: increases proc rates and spell dmg ... useless
AGI: increases avoidance (yep totally useless)
Mana Regen: who needs it
Power Buff: naw that extra 500 power is just no good
DPS Buff: Tanks really don't like this one
Dehate: Just let the overnuking mages die!!!! Never use this
Mitigation: Nope don't need resistances
Heal Crit: 16% heal crits are no use at all...1 our of 6 heals criting really pisses healers off, they don't like making heal parses.

You want to know why a dirge has more buffs then a coercer?? BECAUSE A COERCER HAS MORE DPS MORON. And just so you know, our hate buff is stronger as is our power regen and our DPS buff

Arani

are you insane!

yeah maybe you could use more aggro slip potential, but I would assume utility or dps over an aggro slip would be desired by most.. but to say a coercer gets hate 2x as much as any other mage is extremely exaggerated if not all out off.

If you're having aggro drags at 1k maybe need different gear, better group balance... I don't snag aggro even a little on my coercer until the 1.8k-2k range.

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Cyllie

and how much higher was your raids warlock or wizard on the parse when you pulled aggro at 2k?

Arani

I am the warlock and I parse a good deal higher than the Main Coercer but rarely an AE fight goes by without at least a look-see from the mob on the warlock. its because I get 3 different people de-aggroing me on the warlock and no one on the coercer. The wizard who still pulls aggro with troub, and harm link and his 4% aggro transfer still gets aggro at 3k+ dps mark. I can hit my coercer dps potential without much aggro help.. but it's twice as much work for me on the warlock to achieve the dps potential without external aggro help.

With moderate or harm link alone on coercer I only get odd spikes on cases where destructive mind find a weird spike like mistress, or fights like treyloth when everyone has an aggro issue. I'm guessing you don't have ideal group set-up and no harm link to spare for yourself or whatever it is I'm sure it's understandable but from a warlock perspective that's about the top of the aggro fight as you can get in most cases.

As a warlock I can parse much higher yeah so is your complaint that coercers dont parse as high as sorcerers? You said coercers get double the aggro as any other mage... dps aggro is the same equation for everyone ae classes will have a hit no matter what they are. Coercers are an AE class, 3 green ae damage 1 blue ae damage. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are comparing the number of aggro slips/reduxes a sorcerer has compared to your one very unstable aggro redux, and the blue fear aggro slip long recast... which is why I said I think coercers would rather have more group utility or dps than an aggro redux, I know I would.

From a sorcerer perspective so much about even getting our dps out there at all is based on our aggro controls... The coercer does not have an aggro hit that they cannot counter by self buff or guardian tank moderate. It takes getting used to the reactive spikes but it's not the top of the coercer's issues.

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Cyllie

My complaint is that with HL on me I can pull aggro easily at 1-2k dps while the warlok is doing 3k plus and not pulling aggro and the wizzie and necro are tossing out mana and life burns. Coercers only get Ranged detaunts with AA specs that aren't in the dps lines, so are virtually useless.
No I don't think an enchanter should have the dps potential of a sorc, but our hate gain is nuts for the dps we put out, partly because of the stuns/power drains/dazes attached to all of our spells, but mostly with AE mobs because our reactives will cause spike damage on them when the AE hits, and while the short burst of dps is nice and all, it doesn't add enough to our overall dps for the encounter usually to justify the hate gained for that short time.
Our hate shoots up when the AE hits and if the tank hasnt recently built up alot of hate prior to the AE then the mob is on us. I have found a lot of tanks use most of their hate gain/dps right after AEs (often due to memwipes) and when dispatched is landed which rarely is put on before an AE, this causes aggro to the coercer who just did heavy damage at a time the tank usually has less hate.

Revel

Ok, just have to pick this apart a little bit.

Int does not increase proc rates, sorry, I wish! It only increases base spell damage up to the cap of 1050 and the gain after 700 is very low due to diminishing returns.

Agi is useful but if you're in the MT group for your agi buff, your raid leader needs to review his notes on class buffs. The only other person in the raid who might benefit would be an offtank, because agi is not saving anyone else.

Power/arcane mitigation, are you kidding? If you're in the group when, if ever, have you run out of power to even kick into this 'reserve' tank of power? And mitigation is useless under current game mechanics, except for certain mobs, and even then you have to be under 2000 to notice that you're getting hit for a few hundred damage more. The mob's int is generally the bigger key to its ae. I never cast this buff.

DPS buff is great, sure. But, almost all dps scouts reach a very high number self-buffed, so that's limiting as well.

Link is useful but there is probably a deaggro cap just like there is a hate cap. I've seen people with it on die, and people of the same class without it parse better at the time of death and not die on the same mob. If you don't have a troubadour lying around, I can see the utility, but the better answer would be to recruit another troubadour, they're greatly underappreciated.

Finally heal crits. Heal crits seem valuable but in practice, but they're certainly not required. Comparing parses of priests with high crit chance and low crit chance doesn't show the enormous difference that say, spell damage crit shows. This is because heals are limited to the incoming damage. Even the MT healers, who should have the biggest spikes due to having more hp to heal, don't show a discernible difference. I've played several healers specced without heal crit
and I always keep everyone alive and usually am near the top of the heal parses.


Oh and I forgot the last comment, about a coercer having more dps? Hm. No, you probably have lousy dirges. Yes we work a lot less for it, probably, but my guild's dirge runs in the MT group, thus without many beneficial dps buffs, and has beaten me or is within 100 dps of me in all instances or avatar fights, etc. The guild's other dirges and troubadours are comparable, all 1k to 1.2k dps. Without buffs, my normal dps range is 1.2 to 1.4k dps. Not a big difference there, no.

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Revel

I do agree that our hate is sporadic and too high for the silly amount of dps that we're doing, stun being one of the worst offenders for peeling aggro. One theory is that one point of power drain is one point of threat, and stun is several hundred or perhaps even over a thousand points of threat. If that theory is true, then power drain is not only pointless, its actual harmful to a coercer. I've never fully tested this theory, though.

Further, in the past, I've grabbed aggro at very odd times, but that's probably due to the nature of our reactive damage, as this is uncontrolled you have a difficult time gauging if you ever need to slow down (as most cases you have to speed up just to keep up with raid dps). This was mostly mitigated by moving to a guild with a tank that produces a lote more hate/dps, but I still do it off and on, even when my dps is not high, but usually after I do a stun.

As a side note, I don't feel that the other control spells (daze/stifle or even root) give much aggro at all. Stun seems to be the biggest key.

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Cyllie

1. Ok rate was the wrong word...it increases proc Damage

2. AGI = avoidance, and avoidance has been god over physical mit EoF. Its small an NO you dont get put into a group with this alone, its a build up of everything. And so you know, avoidance is about the only thing that is going to save me or any other caster if they pull aggro.

3. Power....500 power is considerable...how much damage does that add to a manaburn? How much easier is it to float under 30% power for max dps with an INT spec? Power useless you gotta be kidding...power drains? its that much more that has to be drained, the more power you have the better especially on long fights.

4. You really think magic, divine and mental resistances are useless? Resistances make the difference if you live through AEs or not, you really should be pushing these past 10k if you can.

5. DPS buff, I dont know a scout who doesn't want these. The MT's autoattack goes up considerably with one which means more hate to him or her and the cap on them is 200, show me a scout that can self buff 200 dps mod.

6. HL is mostly useful if you have casters who like to go for max dps and die, just cast it on them and dont tell them so they dont try to push even more dps. If there is a cap on it its considerably more then the 22% base we give.

7. I really dont think the heal crits personally are worth losing the dps you have to sacrifice to gain them, but for a more defensive oriented coercer they are, especially if your tank is under geared or your healers are not fully geared/mastered, but even in a fully equiped and mastered raid they are still useful, that heal crit can bring your tank up just enough to survive the next hit. Every last HP matters and that means the larger you can get your heals the better.

8. If your gear is comparable to that of your dirges then you should be almost doubling thier dps, at least 50% higher then them. Especially with a dps buff...if you have an INT spec maybe you should try staying under 30% power, if you are fighting avatars you should have the gear to max you mana out in a very short time if you need to channel.

Celui

Giving us shorter immunity timers on stuns, dazes, and stifles would increase our raid role. Also, reducing the resistance factor of spells that are more geared towards crowd control would enable us to aid more in tougher raid encounters.

People always think DPS is what increases ones raid role which it does but when you are faced with a more challenging encounter the extra dps you do may not offset the fact that all your tanks are dead because you couldn't daze a group of mobs long enough or stun a particular mob long enough to allow debuffs to be placed on target encounter and healers to catch up with heals or the raid to kill something specifically.

Obviously this thinking does not apply to lame ass zones but to those that offer a little difficulty.

Off topic: The agro pulling of a coercer generally occurs on group encounters or single target encounters when all reactives fire. It's the way the class is so fucken deal with it.