Slippery

Editing to reword my post so it is a little more clear.

If you where going to run Dirge, Coercer, Swash for max hate gain after this change, you would still be wrong. Dirge, Swash, Assassin would provide more hate and it would be a lot more consistent with less low spikes.

Revel

Well, my mechanics could be totally off, and these numbers are arbitrary, but I think a coercer would be about equivalent to an assassin after the change, although probably not above a really good one.

Here's the hypothetical situation: If you could run 1500 threat/second, that would be about 250 threat, and if your tank is doing base 2000 threat/second and you are contributed 14% of the hate increase (50% minus the 36% from the dirge, assuming your tank is not down the hate line), that would be about 530 total threat/second.

That's the equivalent of an assassin doing about 3k dps at 18% transfer, although of course, it would be slightly different between AE dps and single target dps since different targets of the encounter would be at different rates, but let's just try to keep it simple.

About 1500 threat a second shouldn't be too far off, since most coercers should be able to hit 1k to 1.5k dps, about 100 power/second (if that counts for anything) plus other aggro (control effects, perhaps power heals).

Of course, there's a lot of spiking in this, and coercer dps is not front-ended like an assassin, so that further screws up the situation. DPS raises alot on multiple target mobs as well, so that means that perhaps the coercer would have to put out a bit more threat to reach a 3k assassin.


Of course, this is about half the threat that we could pull off before the change, and we have to work alot harder to get it.

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cornbread

If the choice is assassin or coercer then you get to claim all of the hate gained from the 17% hate gain buff (well, 14% because 3% is wasted), plus every drop of hate (including the hate bonus from the dirge) from whatever dps you give the tank from your buffs, plus any hate you transfer to him.

So if your tank is at 1500 dps and 50% autoattack damage you come in and give him a 50% autoattack dps boost that is 562.5 threat per second, plus 14% of the original 1500 dps which is another 210, plus 17% of your own (we'll say 1k tps) which is another 170. That's 942.5 threat per second.

Compared to an assassin which will give the tank apply poison (maybe 100 threat per second) and 18%. Without a hate buff on the assassin he'd have to do 4680 dps to keep up with your threat gain.

Unless I did my math wrong or overstated the value of the +dps buff it seems to me that the assassin and swash are the ones getting screwed.

Pinski

Between warriors who run the STR line with maxed out hate, and the Bracelet of the Chime, an avatar-spec'd straight out defensive Warrior will have 51% hate gain with a Dirge, thus a Coercer would be completely out of the question for increasing the most hate. Therefore, a Dirge, Swashbuckler, and Assassin would be the best option.

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Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos
Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

cornbread

Good point. If your tank can bring their hate gain up on their own then coercer = screwed. We use 3 healers instead of two so we only have space for either a coercer or an assassin/swash, and our tank has none of that gear (but may have str line...not sure) so it isn't a big issue for us. I still wonder if coercer+swash would be better than assassin+swash because of the +dps buff on the tank and melee transfer, plus their own transfer.

I guess it depends on how much gain they get from the +dps buff.

Revel

D'oh, I guess I didn't factor those situations into account. Warrior STR line is the most popular, although not all of them take the hate AA (due to them reaching the cap without it). But, it's easy enough for them to respec to put points towards hate, which I guess does point towards more dissappointment for the coercer. With a full 8 aa points, they'll have 10% passive hate, and the avatar bracelet would cap them with the extra 5%.

As far as how much the dps buff is helping, here's my thinking on it. A dirge often can spare a concentration for group dps buff, which is +28. With adornments, tanks should be at +20 base, so that's +48. If you have a zerker tank, they'll proc berserk to raise their average +dps higher, but sporadically of course. Some items have frenzy on them, but they're not common for tanks, so I'll leave those items out of this for now. So +dps buff in that situation, +48 to +126 would add about 50% dps gain. This will be between 250 and 400 dps depending on your tank, zone, and situation.

An assassin's apply poison generally parses about 100+ zonewide (with less of a dependence on whether the tank is in defensive or not), so you're also competing with that factor.

So, at most you're getting out 300 extra dps and 4% hate increase for a non-chime'd tank. Your assassin or swash would have to be doing less than 2k dps for you to match that, which in most cases means you need a new assassin or swash.

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Manyak

Which supports my claim about merging the two enchanters even more. If an illusionist had the hate buff, then it might end up being worthit to put an ehcnater in the MT group on those really long fights.

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Cyllie

They will never actually in fact merge the two enchanter classes, from the view of SoE the more classes you have the better.

Revel

I agree it's too big of a game mechanics change for them to consider merging classes, although I also agree that it would make the most sense of any of the suggestions.

In the meantime I rather try to rally for a change that's a little more plausible: how about making our hate buff raid-wide, so that it's not confined to one group? In most cases we'll still assign hate to the offtank, but at least we offer flexibility that way. Otherwise, the only valuable things I'm bringing to the table that's different than an illusionist are hate decrease and faster memwipes.

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