Davngr

exeptional players over come class stigmas with ease..

Jikko

In most situations I typically don't have problems holding agro either, with or without hate gen. Unless the DPS is being dumb and intentionally trying to rip agro off me, I consider it entirely my fault if I lose agro, and even then I pride myself on being able to hold agro anyway. A long time ago I used to raid with a couple wizards who loved me because they could do whatever the hell they wanted for the most part and still stay among the living, although I was boggling at that because I don't understand what's so difficult about holding agro in the first place.

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Shion

Keeping agro depends on a lot of things:
- tank's spell, AA skills, gear, procs, etc
- tank how much dps and taunt do
- how much agro transfer and agro mod chars in tank's group
- dps' how use their nukes. What is the order of their spells (debuffs, dots, small nuke, deagro, large nukes, etc)

"A chain is so strong as the weakest chain-link."

I suggest during raid MT group should has dirge+coercer minimum or appropriate agro transfer/mod chars. If there are 3 agro mod/transfer in MT group, is much better. Let time for tank building enough agro, so this time dps should cast their debuff first of all, after dots and small nukes. After it you can start nukes with using your deagros spells. Learn and practice where is border when you can make max. dmg AND not to do overagro. It is very hard, but you can do it

When there are more mobs in one encounter or there are more encounter, don't forget your tank has few and small aoe and don't have aoe taunt. Watch your aoe this time, be very carefully. You can use your aoe, if you let enough time to your tank for building enough agro. Practice and learn again.

So keeping agro is a group work, not depends on one person only. Work together ;)

Yours sincerely,

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Runnyeye server: Shionzyx 80 Templar, Fenyhozo 70 Guardian, Hullahop 72 Necromancer, etc

Retired alts on Darathar: Shion 70 Shadowknight - 70 Armorer, Shionka 70 Defiler - 39 Carpenter, Nevtelen 40 Coercer - 51 Sage - 50 Tinkerer

Davngr

zerkers have an AoE taunt.. and the way you describe how raiding should be might apply to a first time encounter or a "special" encounter that requires a slow burn.. if the dps has to take it easy on dmg evrypull like you siad than any primate could tank and there would be no skill required.. in short i totally dissagree with you dps should go as hard as they can for 99% of encunters and the tank should learn how to hold agro and limit deaths .. that presents a challenge and is fun. not mention the fact that you will clear more shit that way.

Stevers

Yeah, i think its funny when people come into the game, play a little while, and think aggro control in raids is all on the tank. Like someone quoted earlier, keeping aggro on the tank isnt as simple as an 'i win button' you hit... its a group effort.

If you have a coercer and a dirge in the MT group, yeah, its pretty implausible you're going to strip aggro off the MT, especially if he can dps well.

Funny sometimes I go into a group instance with no hate transfer [due to lack of classes LFG or guildies LFG] and certain ppl will hit all their big abilities right off the bat, pulling aggro for a split second or two... then by the end of the encounter, i end up parsing higher than them, so there's no excuse for them to be pulling aggro except their lack of intelligence that makes them think its important to burn all big hits a.s.a.p.

But yeah, if aggro control was just the tank's job, then why do other classes have detaunts? Just logical thinking there..

That first post in this thread was a lil' butchered but what I got out of it was, they think its impossible for a tank to hold aggro when everyone is maximizing their DPS? That's totally false. Its pretty hard to strip aggro off the MT that knows what their doing and has proper group setups.

Jikko

yes

disagree.

im a tank. if i've got dps in my group and/or raid that can't go full steam for fear of taking agro off me, then it's not their fault for not controlling their agro, it's my fault for not doing my fucking job.

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Khorve

Don't be an idiot, and read what he said. He didn't say that the dps in your "group and/or raid" can't go full steam, he said that it's a team effort (as is implied by "group"). Even if I pull as hard as I can, I can't overcome a M1 Ice Nova spell from a Wizzy, and as I may have said before, the aforementioned Wizzy becomes a dpsless grease spot.

In scenario #2, instead of being a fuckwit, the Wizard waits until aggro's well established, and then uses the Ice Nova spell. Hey look, the mob stays on me, and the Wizard doesn't die a horrible death.

Jikko

Actually I'm fairly certain a wizard could drop an ice nova on my target on pull fairly often and I'd still keep him from dying, which may or may not be related to my class, but whatever. I don't play a wizard myself, but I imagine he'd rather wait for some debuffs on the mob before dropping his big shit anyway. I assume whether he lives or not, dropping everything right off the bat hurts his DPS.

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Shion

If a wizy cast Ice Nova or similar nuke at pull, he is bad player and very soon dead wizy. As I wrote earlier, give time for agro building, so don't start with nukes. I can't believe that you must start nuking at the beginnig of battle to win dps parse! If you nuke immidiately, you will die very soon, so your dps parse will be zero. So you have no chance for winning dps parse. Think a little bit, before you push on nuke button.

Follow dps order as I wrote earlier and give some time for agro building. Most battle in raids takes 5-15 mins, so you will not lose anything waiting for about 1 min with nukes. This times use debuffs, dots, small nukes, etc. Use dolls for debuff too. It takes for example 10sec. After it you can make high dps bravely. We do this way, so our dps' can cast lifeburn, manaburn, etc at 60% bravely and they don't overagro at all. If it is a long fight, they can cast lifeburn, manaburn, etc more times in that battle. What is it, if not making max. dps?

Conclusion: patiantly wait for agro building and only after it do high dps

Berzerker AoE taunt: yes, he has and only berzerker has it. If he can use it (depends on situation), that is good. But sometimes he can't use it. BTW this pumping taunt recast timer is much more longer (few mins as I know), then normal taunts (20-30sec), so berzerker can't cast it so often as he wanna.

I have necro alt too and I can say that I can steal agro from tank any time if I wanna. So am I good dps? No, because I steal agro. But I can win dps parses too and not stealing agro at all when I follow dps order. So it works

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Runnyeye server: Shionzyx 80 Templar, Fenyhozo 70 Guardian, Hullahop 72 Necromancer, etc

Retired alts on Darathar: Shion 70 Shadowknight - 70 Armorer, Shionka 70 Defiler - 39 Carpenter, Nevtelen 40 Coercer - 51 Sage - 50 Tinkerer

Davngr

i can take back agro from ice nova easy even back to back with fusion.. and if not thats what healers are for im not saying that tanks should never loose agro im saying it's the tanks job to control the mob NOT to tell dps how to play their toon.. all i ask from dps is kill shit fast.. and yes most dps have deagro and use it but that has nothing to do with them being scared to cast because they are going to take agro and be yelled at by some tard.. matter of fact ice nova is the first spell i cast on a mob in raid after debuff so it will be up 3 times in the ecounter instead of 2 ...