eq2brawler

I do know your skills and AA. I have a zerker. Way to ignore a valid point though with a (n incorrect) flame that's totally unrelated to what I said. You said two good skills dont get upgraded, and while I have no idea which two since you didn't say, I figure juggernaut is one of them. I pointed out that it doesn't need an upgrade and hell an 'upgrade' might just make you more squishy. The comment on open wounds was just a side note since its the same concept.

But since you brought it up, I'll mention that even though it will not be as good, open wounds is still a good skill and there's no fucking way that you won't still be using it in RoK. 100% is quite a bit more than 40% and haste is nice especially at the start of a fight when your haste procs aren't up yet. And if you choose not to take the 40% then open wounds really is good, because it lets you get some other AA skills. 12% reuse speed is, as someone else pointed out, kind of nice. It only seems bad because the rest of the warrior tree is so fucking hot.

Skel

Pretty sure anyone who actually has a zerker knows wtf OW is called... its only one of our class defining skills.

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Aftermath

Dimglow

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only berserker who is fine with Guardians being superior raid MTs. This is coming from a zerker who has had the oppurtunity to tank against every mob in FTH, and all but 2 in MMC. I know I've never seen the hard raids, and odds are I won't ever see them unless I take in groups of 80s. (PVP server one side faction raiding is tough.)

But besides that berserkers are still going to stomp all over Guardians in groups and smaller raids. Those kinds of gameplay are also part of the game. There is also even a PVP aspect to the game, believe it or not. Neither class can solo worth anything (oh well.) But ultimately zerkers will still have zerk and roar over them, a superior offensive stance, and some fantastic aoe/offensive abilities.

Skills are all situational, while berserker offense bonuses are weak in raiding, Guardian defensive bonuses are worthless when the enemies can't make a single healer break a sweat. Sure destruction isn't a whole lot against a 4 million hp mob, but tower of stone is crap when it absorbs 800 damage a hit at most. There is a world outside of raiding, and most players are in that world. There are very few raid main tanks compared to the population of EQ2.

I think that this topic really shouldn't be made into a battle, because there won't be any progress made. The warriors should be working together to solve the problems that they both face. Let's look at the problems here:

Warrior Tree Problems:
STR tree is a 4 4 8 no-brainer damage booster. The +hate is not compelling as a defensive option, and the final ability is too risky to really say much about.
Result: STR tree is often treated as a 16 point tree max.

AGI tree is not attractive to berserkers as it does not play to our existing strengths, so most berserkers place it rather low in priority. Guardians however can utilize it fully. However, despite the cone auto-attack, the defensive bonuses in AGI are weak. The finale is also somewhat lacking as it has a cumbersome timer.
Result: AGI often disregarded by berserkers. More appealing to guardians, and can function as a full tree. AGI is the "favorite" choice to receive points in RoK from Guardians. Netting them 40% auto-attack probably, and possibly another 10 minute defensive timer. These offensive gains for guardians will range from 0 to 1000+ dps a fight.

STA line is the shining (and arguably overpowered) star of the warrior tree. Giving the most difficult for power damage modifier to aquire in double attack it lets the user recover lost avoidance through riposte, and also gives a powerful passive dps booster in buckler reversal. Ends in a rather cheap and nice power cost reducer.
Result: Almost all berserkers use STA as the DPS is nearly necessary to function. Less Guardians use it, but it is still a top tier choice. Entire tree stands well.

WIS line sucks for everybody. Offering DPS, the easiest modifier to get for warriors, and mitigation, which is usually highly diminished and discounted as well as a CA that can't even be utilized raiding, it is often quickly disregarded by both warriors.
Result: Almost a complete throw-away for both classes.

INT line is a no brainer for at least 5 points due to the overpowered CA that still dominates and completely nullifies the existence of every other tree's CA. The haste is bland to say the least, and the parry bonus while "helpful" is severely diminished in raiding situations. The finale is a helpful little bonus, as the recovery time addition is useful.
Result: Often taken 4-1 or 4-3 by both. Filling INT is probably the favorite for berserkers in RoK, netting them 2-8% auto-attack damage, 12% CA damage, and minor avoidance gains. These offensive gains are realistically rather minor. Using myself as a solo example, it would be about 150 total damage. Minor utility gains from recast increases.

So how could you "fix" it? Since AGI offers "berserker like" abilities perhaps the WIS line could be changed to offer "guardian like" abilities. For example, change the WIS CA into a very easy to land CA, change the DPS into combat-skills (so berserkers can escape the burden of the warden,) the defensive skill into slightly more mitigation or perhaps health, and change the ultimate into an all-around skill bonus instead of the stance specific one it is now (like Coule is for rogues, giving offensive and defensive bonuses.) Sure, Guardians could go down WIS after that as well, but then they would need to trade off something like DPS or AOE. It would also give Berserkers a chance to be more "Guardian like" if they wanted, the way Guardians will have the chance to be more "berserker like." Since it is the warrior tree and by definition a shared pool of resources belonging to the brother warrior classes it only makes sense that both are equally represented.

Almost everyone can agree the berserker tree is weak. Mostly due to the weak ultimates and lack of "wow factor" in most berserker abilities in a raid setting. Berserkers simply don't have many powerful active abilities, most of the big skills for them are passive or unable to be improved through the EoF tree.

Gut Roar (and the debilitation tree) is fine as is excluding Vanquish, the problem is that it entire line can't be made useful in raiding without trivializing encounters due to debuff limits. Gut Roar can never work on something truly necessary to an encounter otherwise 2 zerkers and a troub can trivialize it. As such Gut Roar should've been made a 5 point skill that was part of the tree (a counter attached to an existing AOE ability) or it should've simply replaced Vanquish as a 5 point ability, arguably the WEAKEST enhancement on the entire tree. Vanquish is one of the berserkers worst skills ever since it was made into a stifle but kept the ridiculous power cost it carried as a stun. Gut roar should be optional but useful, so a 5 pointer earlier in the line is sensible. Still needs a resistance decrease too, as it misses too often.

With Gut Roar moved, the end of the debilitations tree should be something like Overpowering Strikes, increase berserker accuracy by 10% for example to counter the Guardian double-attack. It makes sense that Berserkers could overpower defenses as well, especially if you took an entire tree worth of abilities that -weaken- your opponent first.

Cyclones is tolerable even if weak. (It should be a group-wide open wounds IMO.) This would give Berserkers much more identity and utility, it also fits much better at the end of an AoE DPS tree. This would be the answer to guardians being able to protect others from AoEs.

The entire perseverance line should have much more effect. I actually like regen, and I realize it really can and does make a difference. Does it still need tweaking? Yes. The same effect for less points, and more defensive options in the line. Consolidate the mit buffs into this line. Change the ultimate to a permanent regen enhancer and crowd control resistance improver that increases in power as your hp drops.

Bulking needs some work, such as adding an ability to enhance Roar (group STR buff) to the line, and the ultimate should be berserk stacking, letting self-buff and group-buff combine. There are many berserker buffs that could be put into this tree and allowed enhancements.

End result would be a truly defensive line, an aoe line, a debuffing/accuracy line (advantage line), and a buffing/dps pumping line instead of the poorly thought out and misguided mishmash we have now.

eq2brawler

Indeed, and as my quote reveals, I too know its name, just wanted to cover all bases in case my memory was faulty--otherwise people tend to focus on irrelevant errors rather than the meat of the matter. Feel free to Keep trying to pick at faults that aren't there though, rather than to concede a valid point.

Paikis

This is the only problem I have with your post Kemt. That Guardian final ability, "Got Your Back" works ONLY on fighters, and I'm pretty sure it works only in your group. Making it 100% useless in raids. If this was more like the bard's Bladedance ability, then I could see your justification working. It is not however.

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Paikis, Troubador of Nagafen.
Vae Victis - 'The bait isn't supposed to eat the fish!'

Namai

Nope.

I just hope for the sake of your guild/top end raiding in this game, that you are able to find a better bezerker than this guy.

Are you saying he is not/was not/will never be a Disso app?

Rienlos

Certainly, the post was awesome except for this. I agree with the Warrior tree mostly as neither of us gain much from another 20 there.

Your handle on the zerker tree sounds pretty damn good to me but this is coming from someone who knows little about it.

Aiyo

I feel that zerker really need love & revamp the whole eof tree.

Guardian eof tree have 6 skill enhancement that increases damage & i believe most guard have got 4 skill max out & so another 10 more pts helps increase guard dps & max out that tree. (Slaughtering) 31pts used!!

Zerker have got 5 skill enhancement that increases damage & most of the zerker got 2 max out (OW & destruction) & another 5 pts will max out that tree with (Cyclone) 26 pts used !!

Most guardian having 3 pts on rescue & 5 pts in reinforcement so 2 more pts to max out rescue. 10 pts used !! = 41 pts total

Sadly zerker dont have that option & most of em will put pts & max mangle with 5 pts & cross my finger & toes hope that help in avoiding hits from EPIC (also believe most zerker have got 5 pts each in Raging Blow & Vicious cut as these skill effect on EPIC) 10-raging blow & vicious cut 5 more on mangle = 15pts used !!! - 41 pts total

For the above 41pts used for both class , guard get dps increase in 6 skill with reuse timer reduce of rescue & reinforcement.

Zerker get 5 skill enhance with 3 skill damage increase slightly as ppl already got pts in it so with 5 pts used enhance is only minimal & that would come with crossing my finger & toes with those skill that debuff EPIC works.

Guardian with the 2 mit buff enhancement in same line (stalwarting) 21 pts used with last skill have got 8 more pts free would be mostly used in stalwarting & max out this tree or some peeks might get the skill enhancement for debuffing...
Guard gets enhancement for stoneskin, death prevention, mit buff enhance , dps reduce from plant, 2 x block. Note : this tree would rock in Surviving!!!

Zerker with bulking last skill would mostly max out that tree from 16 or 19 pts in that tree & becoming 23pts used to max out
zerker gets 2 x haste/dps procs , mit buff, weapon ageis & juggernaut
Zerker getting dps...dps...dps...& mit buff more by 15sec LMAO
With still 6 pts free wondering where to put think for me I would go for disorder enhancement for mit buff reuse for 5 & 1 pts still then anywhere …wouldn’t make a difference!!

Guardian having 41pts on Slaughtering with rescue & reinforcement along with stalwarting max out should live longer & dps greatly increase.

While zerker is all about dps & only 2 mit buff enhancement so PLS HELP.
I seriously believe the game designer wouldn’t want some class to be isolated !!!!

Small change even with no revamp in zerker EOF tree, remove Blood rage & replace with roar that come with 122 str without enhance & with per pts use getting abit of melee skill increase like 1 aa pts – 4 + c/s/p skill increase ( since there isn`t this type in KOS tree) with 5 aa pts that gives 20 melee skill is not overpowered for sure J Or even gives us CA enhance is not a bad choice.

For KOS:
Not to mention guard almost becoming like zerker in AOE damage as agi line. & for a zerker would prolly not go for agi line as it don’t really help as in raid & etc there wouldn’t be aoe fight in every min so no point as we have OW. So zerker might go for str , sta & int. Again LMAO int offer haste & we r well into near cap L

I think the above aa selection for both class is based on 40-60% of the people that are playing zerker & guardian…

Lamp 70 zerker
Lamps 70 guardian