The fix to crusaders being left in the dust for DPS... - Page 21

Dogmae · 04-16-2008, 11:40 PM

I haven't read any recent posts in this thread, but just replying to this

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

You are not going to period be higher dps then a zerker ,or higher defense then a guard.

We shouldn't do both, but right now Guardians DPS higher and are more defensive AT THE SAME TIME.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

You have advantages guards zerks dont get we are pure ca no spells no heals and mild utility.

Just curious what advantages you think Crusaders have?
Having spells and CA's is a disadvantage because that means we have to mix and match gear. A lot of Crusaders have different sets of gear for dps or tanking, where Warriors can do both pretty equally in the same gear. We have longer cast times so we are easier to interrupt. Being a bastard hybrid class tends to make people think that the spell proc gear should be going to "pure" casters first etc.

That said I do not think we need DW, I don't think it would solve any of our problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

You do have utility , heals ,and spell capabilitys that guards do not get nor zerkers.

And Guardians / Zerkers have utility that crusaders do not get.

guapo1 · 04-16-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogmae

I haven't read any recent posts in this thread, but just replying to this

We shouldn't do both, but right now Guardians DPS higher and are more defensive AT THE SAME TIME.

I have been agreeing with you on this guards should not be out parseing sks.However yes more defensive.

Just curious what advantages you think Crusaders have?
Having spells and CA's is a disadvantage because that means we have to mix and match gear. A lot of Crusaders have different sets of gear for dps or tanking, where Warriors can do both pretty equally in the same gear. We have longer cast times so we are easier to interrupt. Being a bastard hybrid class tends to make people think that the spell proc gear should be going to "pure" casters first etc.Thats why i said your spells cas aa need to be revamped or made to be better.To give you boost on dps and more structure/need.

That said I do not think we need DW, I don't think it would solve any of our problems.

And Guardians / Zerkers have utility that crusaders do not get.

Dogmae · 04-17-2008, 12:05 AM

You keep saying we have advantages that you do not though. What are those? You have just as much utility as us.

FYI I don't think it is the Guardian mythical that is overpowered, just your buckler line.

guapo1 · 04-17-2008, 12:09 AM

Whats this deule?. Quote by you this thread was not intended to nerf outher classes.You did not ask to have better tanking ability + dps by asking in this thread for sk only 1 handers and sk only 2 handers with 15 % block.Must have been your sister, or maybe your dog that posted.

04-02-2008, 04:54 PM

Deule

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Re: The fix to crusaders being left in the dust for DPS...
Well than lets talk about balance...simply from a fighter stand point SK's are supposed to be one of the more offensive minded tanks since they are not given the defensive abilities that Guards and Paladins are given. And yet with the introduction of mythicals the Guard now is hands down the most defensive tank and can DPS one of the best out of all the fighters while doing it...that is what is fucked up. Ok, if you rather I do it I guess nerf the hell out of all the other classes to bring everything back on level. Nerf the damn guard that can parse as much as a SK. Nerf illusionists that are the best utility in the game and T1 DPS. Nerf Rogues since they too have a ton of utility and have T1 type DPS.
Did not intend post to nerf outhers.
I am not asking for everything. I am asking for an ability that much like bows at launch, should have just been handed to crusaders at the beginning. If they are gonna make 2h weapons suck ass and if they are going to make the SK epic a strictly 1h weapon than something needs to be changed. Oh wait....you know what I would rather see, I would like to see SOE take the path they did in EQ1 and make the best 1h weapons Crusader only...1h weapons that are a lot more powerful than any other 1h weapons to make up for the fact that Crusaders can't DW...but than imagine all the other melee classes crying about that. I would also like to see SOE include 2h weapons that have a good amount of block on them to make them tanking 2h weapons...again like they did in EQ1.

That is the catch, SOE stayed with the same restrictions for the SK class and yet did not carry over the benefits that made up for it.

Like you stated this isnt eq1.Soe wont make the same mistake.I will be looking for more genius posts by you in this thread.

guapo1 · 04-17-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogmae

You keep saying we have advantages that you do not though. What are those? You have just as much utility as us.I would love to have your spell ability. It is comon knowledge spells achieve hate more so then striaght dps and alot quicker.However we are a striaght physical dps class.

FYI I don't think it is the Guardian mythical that is overpowered, just your buckler line.

I dont disagree with this statement.However it is shared by zerks ,and guardians so they cant change one with out the outher suffering from it.Make more sense just to boost the outher fighters dps.

Dogmae · 04-17-2008, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

COLOR=red]Notice both mention they can use plate.#2 Zerkers HEAVY DAMAGE.[/color]
[Crusader:] Paladin /shadowknight

{Crusader description.} Crusaders are armored defenders that call upon divine powers to aide them in battle. They wield a wide variety of weapons in combat, and are capable of dealing impresive physical damage.

{Paladin description} Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right.Wearing heavy armor these valiant defenders of truth fight for honor,virtue,and nobility.

Armor: Heavy , Vanguard.

{Shadowknight description} Shadowknights are insidious dark crusaders who use the power of evil to advance there cuases.They live to inflict fear,hate,and despair on all who cross there paths.

Armor: heavy ,vanguard

Where does this mention you should have plate ?. Which that explains exactly why you do not have equal survivability as true warriors.#2 Crusaders have impressive damage not HEAVY damage but far more impressive then a guardian.

Just for fun, since you seem to like this old ass info, and yet don't understand it go here and look for

Quote:

Deathstryker: Plate armor is a heavy armor, as is Vanguard. What is the primary difference between armor types that are in the same class?

Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Generally speaking, vanguard is a special type of heavy plate that will bring prestige to the wearer. It will definitely take more work to obtain than typical plate armor. Armor of the same general type can have different stats and armor rating. Not all plate is created equal.

Now according to this "outdated info" from the same time as your "outdated" info was from, we can see that Vanguard was a better form of plate. So according to your thought process, Crusaders should be more defensive then Berserkers right?

For more outdated info, why don't we find the DPS tier list that Moorgard posted back in the day. There is a cut and past of it here.

Quote:

teve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.

Fourth group:

* Berserker/Shadowknight
* Paladin/Guardian

So since you like to use old info to prove your points SK and berserker should be about equal on DPS and Paladin/Guard below them.

More "old info" that I'm too lazy to find was that when this game first came out published info said something like "all fighters can tank equally they just do it in different ways", and we all know that isn't true (which is fine, but there should be some sort of balance).

You should just quit talking now, because the more of your posts I read, the more I realize how stupid you are. Also in one of your more recent posts that I am too lazy to find right now, you posted your own "Fighter DPS Tree" Why would you place Paladins ahead of SKs. They are clearly the second most defensive tank. Just shows how much you know.

NOTE: I realize this info is old as hell, and was just using it to show that he didn't understand his old info.
I also don't think SKs need DW, but we do need some love.

guapo1 · 04-17-2008, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogmae

Just for fun, since you seem to like this old ass info, and yet don't understand it go here and look for

Now according to this "outdated info" from the same time as your "outdated" info was from, we can see that Vanguard was a better form of plate. So according to your thought process, Crusaders should be more defensive then Berserkers right?
The only vanguard plate in game dumb fuck is on city merchant no stats ,or mit just for looks.As well as armor that was crafted i believe in tier5.My point was valid there was to be difference in mit/avoidence with the 4 plate types.Look back at when soe changed the game from being based on mit ,to more so on avoidence dureing the start of eof.More so in rok.The percentages where different on how much each mitigated.
For more outdated info, why don't we find the DPS tier list that Moorgard posted back in the day. There is a cut and past of it here.

You are a complete idiot you just proved my point.Dps goes zerker sk then pally then guard thats what i had been saying moron.From highest to lowest in order .My point was period sk and paladins are not higher then zerker ,but yes higher then a guard.Deule thinks he supposed to be top dps fighter class ,and i said bull shit which it is.
So since you like to use old info to prove your points SK and berserker should be about equal on DPS and Paladin/Guard below them.

More "old info" that I'm too lazy to find was that when this game first came out published info said something like "all fighters can tank equally they just do it in different ways", and we all know that isn't true (which is fine, but there should be some sort of balance).Old info your stateing when game first came out. I bought game when it first came out ,and as i said dumb fuck. I typed exactly what was in the book describeing the difference between each fighter sub classes warrior ,crusader ,brawler.

You should just quit talking now, because the more of your posts I read, the more I realize how stupid you are. Also in one of your more recent posts that I am too lazy to find right now, you posted your own "Fighter DPS Tree" Why would you place Paladins ahead of SKs. They are clearly the second most defensive tank. Just shows how much you know.
Yep sk higher then paladin in dps you got me here on a typo.However paladin is not, and has never been secound best defensive nor will they ever be.Like i said when eof came out def was changed to useing avoidence more so then mit.Rok made that even more aparent.

Eof was released at the start it was better for tanks to ware leather then plate.So then they recoded the defense factors of each fighter type. Gave penaltys starting from guard % down the line which was guard then zerker then pally then sk.Check it up your mitigated/ avoidence defense of a paladin is not compared to zerkers, or guards.

NOTE: I realize this info is old as hell, and was just using it to show that he didn't understand his old info.
I also don't think SKs need DW, but we do need some love.

You need some love ,and a brain.Can you say im off to see the wizard.You tin fuck.Your classes both sk and paladins do need to have your dps fixed. However hell no your not going to ever have higher mit/def of a zerk.Wake up.This isnt wendys make your own mmorpg we do it your way.

guapo1 · 04-17-2008, 04:24 AM

This shit you keep saying also. All fighters can tank equally they just do it in different ways.If so then monks bruisers should be able to tank in raids to.They are fighters as well. WTF use your fucking head that wasnt refering to raids dumb fucks.

That is refering to situational differences.Group wise/ off tank wise in raids not saying that all fighters can mt raids. You keep thinking this shit and you are fucking wrong ,and out of context of the meaning.

Listening to you and deule. Makes me think even more so of the tin man in the wizard of oz. If i only had a brain.

Dogmae · 04-17-2008, 04:57 AM

I think you failed to grasp my point so let me break it down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

The only vanguard plate in game dumb fuck is on city merchant no stats ,or mit just for looks.As well as armor that was crafted i believe in tier5.My point was valid there was to be difference in mit/avoidence with the 4 plate types

1: Your argument that the original manual said that Crusaders can only use Vanguard and Berserkers can only use Plate is void because that was changed before the game was released. Plate = Vanguard and has since day 1 of live. The only difference between Vanguard and Plate since the game has been released was look. Vanguard is the style that had bulky shoulders and made it look like you had a 6 pack, were Plate was flat. There is crafted Vanguard in T6, T7. If Warriors are supposed to be the king of mitigation as you say, then why do our VP sets have the same miti?

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

However paladin is not, and has never been secound best defensive nor will they ever be.Like i said when eof came out def was changed to useing avoidence more so then mit.Rok made that even more aparent.

2: Look at Paladins again they are more defensive in nature then Berserkers. Check out their AAs

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

Eof was released at the start it was better for tanks to ware leather then plate.So then they recoded the defense factors of each fighter type. Gave penaltys starting from guard % down the line which was guard then zerker then pally then sk.Check it up your mitigated/ avoidence defense of a paladin is not compared to zerkers, or guards.

3: Wrong. The Avoidance bonus was changed to be based off the heaviest armor you can equip so all warriors and crusaders get the same avoidance form wearing the same armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

This shit you keep saying also. All fighters can tank equally they just do it in different ways.If so then monks bruisers should be able to tank in raids to.They are fighters as well. WTF use your fucking head that wasnt refering to raids dumb fucks.

4: I think the point here went right past you. The All fighters tank equally thing was just me using more "old info" like you from when the game was released to show you that it doesn't apply and never has. You can find all the quotes you want from release, and they don't mean shit today. Also Brawlers can tank raids, although not as stable as a Warrior. Crusaders can tank raids, also not as stable as a Warrior. I have never argued otherwise, though you seem to think that others can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

However hell no your not going to ever have higher mit/def of a zerk.Wake up

5: Where did I ask for higher mit / avoidance then a Berserker? Berserker and SK are pretty close as far as mitigation / avoidance goes. If you paid attention to anything you would know this. The main issue is with dps. Both of us "should" be similar, with an edge to one or the other in certain fights (Berserker can spike dps like crazy where sk has to build up).

6: My whole last post was just showing how much of a moron you were because you were using 4 year old quotes, that never took place in the game, to try and prove your points that Guardians aren't overpowered. None of the quotes I listed did I intend to prove anything with other then to show that your quotes didn't matter.

7: I'll say it again. I don't want DW for SKs. I don't think DW would solve anything. We need a lot of work and DW just won't cut it.

8: Buckler line is more overpowered then the Guardian mythical.

9: Make Brawlers scouts and be done with it.

10: Me > you

Ower · 04-17-2008, 05:12 AM

Pallys are a more def tank than zerks tho. They have more survivability. If they are speced right that is.