Orochan

The key diff is warriors can cast while moving, crusaders cannot. Also timing auto attacks between .5 sec cast time CA's is a lot easier then timing between 1sec cast time + spells lol.

Also every tank more or less needs to dps to hold aggro due to the way taunts and damage work. 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate, and right now melee dps classes can auto attack for 4k+ damage ( on one swing) that is the equivalent of a 4k taunt.

Imo they should redo how taunts work, that way they don't have to fuck up the dps balance between fighters to compensate, sorta like they are doing now. hmmm

But the rest of your post seemed right, every class needs a skilled person to play it for the class to not suck.

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SKAR

Took my defiler to a VoES group, and had one of those "worst guard I ever grouped with" nights. Mobs hitting everyone other than the guard. So yes, even guards need some skills to do well. /applaud

And with a 6 dly weapon, timing autoatk is pretty much trivial. Thinking you can swap to DW weapons with 2-4 dly and make much more dps out of it I dont see happening. Thats my point.

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SKAR

So anyhow, this thread title is misleading. All thats going into it is arguing between warriors and crusaders.

What is the "Fix" to crusader dps or raidability? Maybe if we could get some actual ideas going here this thread could be a lil more beneficial.

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Xanoth

Changing pledge to permanently "intercept" some damage done to the MT would give more of a point to OT's throughout all this single mob content.

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Drool

The fix is really quite simple.

Re-work the Agility line to grant 2-hander bonus and double attacks. This would make our parse on par with Warriors buckler bonuses.

Re-work Wisdom line to grant Crusader a raid-wide Deathmarch and a group-wide Fear immunity.

Make us fucking useful. If we had a raid-wide DM, the % of SKs wanted on raids would jump from 2% to 50% overnight.

SKAR

I still want...
AA ability that increases base spell and combat art damage by 5% per rank, and increases the group's base spell dmg by 2.5% per rank. Replace <insert ability here> with it. SK's, pallies (even mages) fixed, wanted, and good tank dps. + that keeps our dps up even if we have to tank. It would be hawt - but maybe a bit OP.

They could also change our stinking +spell dmg raidwide buff to be a + % base spell dmg raidwide.

Pledge does "intercept" dmg, but in the form of Mitigation - could be better. How about an "Until Cancelled" deathward attached to it?

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guapo1

This would be true.

Steel

Agility line is fine if they remove the blasted mount requirement on the last 2 abilitys. I would rather not have the shared crusader wisdom line reworked for only 1 of the 2 classes on deathmarch, if you want that ask for it in your shadowknight tree, not the shared crusader one, group fear immunity would be nice tho. Here is a summary of other ideas, none of which should conflict.

I mentioned earlier:
The 4th ability in the Wisdom line is by far the most worthless option in our crusader tree. A small amount of health regen for group that is a drop to the bucket to even group instance mobs damage let alone raid mobs, with a even smaller bonus regen cap extender. Fearless morale is limited use as a final ability as the amount of fear mobs in the expansion, use a fear aoe and having your healers feared means you are down in 3 swings instead of 2. The 2% bonus to wards, heals, spell, melee is not bad, but could use a boost.

If SOE wanted to boost the WIS line, they could replace the 4th ability with a max 8 points of 10% double attack for group, with percents scaling per point like the 10% max rank hate in STR line. Then follow it up with 50% double attack on self in Fearless Morale. You want to push it even more apply a 8% additional reposte if wielding a 2 hander on the last ability for those wanting some protection in 2 handed mode.

Skar mentioned earlier:
How about this...an AA ability that increases base spell and combat art damage by 5% per rank, and increases the group's base spell dmg by 2.5% per rank. Replace the +hate ability in str line with it. Hell, we'd even be wanted in raids omg!

Xanoth mentioned earlier:
Changing pledge to permanently "intercept" some damage done to the MT would give more of a point to OT's throughout all this single mob content.

On Xanoth idea, others have mentioned that pledge line maynot be the best for this, i always thought personally that a crusader should have the most efficient intercept ability. On the paladin tree we can spec to halve the recast time of intercept, i don't know if shadowknight's have a similar AA choice in theirs. Why not have a additional piece to where we reduce the damage we take when we intercept? Currently a master 1 intercept will protect the target for 1 hit if their health is over 50% or 2 hits if under 50% health. With the way raid mobs hit, and the fact a caster of intercept takes 100% damage, alot of times the OT/MA crusader will become 1 shotted from the intercept or shortly after on a aoe hitting at the wrong time. Why not make it 15% damage reduction per rank on the shadowknight/paladin trees in additional to the quicker recast leaving a total 15 second recast and caster takes 25% of the damage at max 5 points. If shadowknights dont have a AA in their tree, is there room to replace a cruddy one with it?

Just wanted to repost and summarize some of our ideas, to show that the thread isnt completely taken over with guardian versus crusader posts...:-)

guapo1

Steel

Guapo1, you are either intentially playing dumb or you have to be the biggest fucking idiot to post on this thread. You replied with this gem:

Warriors dont cast they attack with melee.Crusaders have melee attacks where they can move to.Crusaders also have alot of spells which they cast, if they move the spell gets interupted.Much like a wizard when they cast.You cant move ,and cast spells at same time makes sense.None of the casters can move, and cast at same time why do you think you should?.

Are you trying to fool everyone that guardians only melee and taunt, never using their combat arts(which is casting by the way). The problem you seem to be unable to understand is that warriors have all their abilities to damage with no movement restrictions, including some of their combat arts that hit like a mack truck on damage. For crusaders, the vast majority of our combat arts are piss poor on damage compared to the damage of warriors and our large hitters are spells that require no moving or autottacks like warriors. It doesnt take alot of + combat art damge to cap our combat arts while warriors have a larger cap on most of theirs. Our spells usually take 2-3 seconds to cast, which means when tanking it is not used or interupted easily, which also includes the use of our survival spells like wards and heals(those ranging from 2-3 secs mostly).

You then assume the above poster was saying guardians are autoattacking for 4K autottacks(when they said melee dpsers which is scouts, fighters and so on). His post could have meant assassins or brigands or guardians or berserkers and so on that have good weapons with high str. 4K autottack is nothing on the high end weapon equipped above classes that are buffed up dps/melee crit.

The only thing you have right on your post is that all agree that taunts are virtually craptastic anymore. SOE needs to figure out that making them resist as much as they do now is the worst idea that they have thought up and using a bandaid of greatly improved dps on holding agro is not a long term solution. Their bright idea of aggression helping taunts not be resisted is about as useful is plus skill enhancers greatly improving to hit ratios on orange con mobs.

The fact of the matter is SOE will do very little if nothing to help paladins on survival with our spells, making our heals/wards to combat arts would make it over powered and cause hostility towards healers. The same thing would apply to crusaders if they changed our spell damages to combat arts while retaining the damage on them, mages would be pissed. The only option we have to increase our damage output is to have double attack and/or the increased % spell damage idea several others have mentioned.

If you want to talk about the ideas several of us have had on boosting crusader dps Guapo1, go ahead and continue posting in the thread. But if all you are going to do is rant and rave on how we are trying to nerf guardians to make crusaders better than go back to your class boards to find a symphathetic ear, Ower's posts are much more on tract on this thread...