The fix to crusaders being left in the dust for DPS... - Page 25

Demented Penguin · 04-19-2008, 03:07 AM

isn't it far past your bed time or something?

Orochan · 04-19-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

Yeah we crit 4 k + all the time with auto attacks god you are fucking stupid.Even then my parser must be broke and not calculateing auto attack dmg correctly.Never have i seen any of my auto attacks hit higher then 2 k. We hit high numbers like that with are power attack cas not with auto moron.

lol, if you honestly think guards cannot auto for 4k you are sorely mistaken, on a fully debuffed mob, 2k-4k from an auto ( crit of course ) is not hard at all to reach.

Also take DA into the equation, if the guardian crits for 2k twice ( because of DA) then guess what? You effectively just did 4k damage in one auto, so yes every melee class more or less @ end game is seeing 4k crits ( give or take ) from auto attacks.

And yes I would look at your parse because if you've never seen your auto crit for more then 2k then you either A) need a brigand or B) need a new parser.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guapo1

Deule this guy related to you? must be just as dumb.If you cant tell the difference between a spell caster, and pure melle class. Do me a favor quit game and start over.Read the manual this time.Yes guards as well as any outher class have delay between attacks.However melle attacks can be done while moveing.Casting spells aka spell attacks you can not do when moveing.

Dude, everyone here perfectly understands that spells are different then CA's. That is not the point though, both are still considered as being casted. To put it in more simple terms I will change my statement and say :

Since warriors use only combat arts, they are allowed the luxury of moving while still casting those combat arts, while crusaders have to remain standing still to use some of their spells and/or CA's ( I really don't know if crusaders have any CA's that interrupt on move so thats why I added the last bit )

And that makes a difference, in tanking style, between warriors and crusaders. Not that either is unbalanced though, just saying it is a difference, which is contesting owers statement that all tank classes play the same, when reality states, they don't.

If you honestly can't understand that I dunno what else to really say.

guapo1 · 04-19-2008, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochan

lol, if you honestly think guards cannot auto for 4k you are sorely mistaken, on a fully debuffed mob, 2k-4k from an auto ( crit of course ) is not hard at all to reach.

Also take DA into the equation, if the guardian crits for 2k twice ( because of DA) then guess what? You effectively just did 4k damage in one auto, so yes every melee class more or less @ end game is seeing 4k crits ( give or take ) from auto attacks.

And yes I would look at your parse because if you've never seen your auto crit for more then 2k then you either A) need a brigand or B) need a new parser.

Prolly need new parser. However i was refering to single hit not includeing da.Da does not always proc either.You dont crit as much either.I will give you the 4k + though if adding those in but average dps with auto is not so high.

Dude, everyone here perfectly understands that spells are different then CA's. That is not the point though, both are still considered as being casted. To put it in more simple terms I will change my statement and say :

Since warriors use only combat arts, they are allowed the luxury of moving while still casting those combat arts, while crusaders have to remain standing still to use some of their spells and/or CA's ( I really don't know if crusaders have any CA's that interrupt on move so thats why I added the last bit ) Thats what i was implying. Steel had made post stateing it was not fair guards can move and cast.Yet sk/palladins cant.Sk and paladins are a fighter/spell caster so no of course there not going to be able to move and cast.

And that makes a difference, in tanking style, between warriors and crusaders. Not that either is unbalanced though, just saying it is a difference, which is contesting owers statement that all tank classes play the same, when reality states, they don't.

If you honestly can't understand that I dunno what else to really say.

Yes none of the fighters have same play.They are all different ,and unique. Each one has its own purpous.Except sks right now becuase there a broken class with little to no worth function in raids currently.

Demented Penguin · 04-19-2008, 05:42 AM

Guapo1, I'm going to say this as politely as possible and in as small and simple of words as possible as to hopefully better help you understand what the concern and topic is about.

Keep in mind that all of the opinions about "fixing" the crusaders have come from those knowledgeable of the class comparing the class to the others overall, and not just one single attribute that we think could be tweaked a little.

As a warrior, the main focus is on str, sta, and agi. Of course most of the plate gear with these stats already have more HP and have something like aggression or parry that boost the gear, but none the less, it is for all intensive purposes "Tank Gear". There are also pieces that have +melee crit, +CA damage, +Attack speed, etc that would make these pieces "DPS Gear". Each type of gear is meant for a different type of fight or purpose obviously, otherwise there wouldn't be a need to have these various things.

As a crusader, we were made to do a variety of things so that we could be more versatile and fit multiple roles. Because of this, we were given some spells, some combat arts, some heals, some tank abilities, some dps features, and some meat shield features. The problem that is now occurring though, is that we need all 5 stats equally as much, and we need a lot more power than the conventional warrior because our spells and other abilities that we use to tank take up a lot more power in order to equal the same effect or damage output. We also were designed to tank based on manipulating the threat positions and using hate transfers purely because if we had been given any form of serious dps, it would have made the class way overpowered. Now the current problems comes into play and we are leaving this brief history lesson.

Because of the way things have progressed, almost every raid is now based on the tank doing a lot of dps to supplement the fact that the taunts do not hit often enough or are not strong enough to keep hate off of the mages / predators. Also, with all the threat reduction buffs that are being put on all the gear, it limits the amount of agro for us to use to transfer, and thus makes it a lot harder for us to hold agro. Additionally, because the majority of the crusader skills have not increased proportionately equal to those of the other classes, especially the dps classes are doing such phenomenal dps and / or generating so much more hate in comparison to the old days when we were designed that our current tools and skills are just not enough to tank alone. At this point, we rely on the other classes abilities and raid setups to supplement these deficiencies until such a day has come where we get balanced out, or get a skill such as Hold the Aggression, or more taunts / faster reuse timers on smaller taunts that will assist in filling in the gaps especially on mem-wipe mobs that completely counter everything that we build upon.

In addition to the system penalizing us for how we were created and how our class operates, we were originally given lesser versions of some heals instead of skills like the guardian's ToS or Guardian Sphere. On solo mobs, the heals may be a little better in some cases, but when you're talking about those huge hits for 3k damage from epics, keep in mind that the crusaders BEST ward is for 1.5k damage, and takes a loooong time to cast for a fighter class skill, and unfortunately has an equally long recast for how ineffective it is. If you're facing something other than a solo mob, that ward starts to look pretty pathetic, and thats basically out primary defensive skill.

In addition, the crusader's mythicals are the only ones that do not have a damage proc, are the only ones that do not have a "defensive bonus" on them such as the +10 defense, the pali's +6 melee crit is still trumped by both of the warriors 8%, the total # of stats and health/power is lowest on the crusaders compared to all of the other fighters, and imho a 5 shield effectiveness bonus way trumps a 100 CA bonus especially when your CAs only do 300-600 damage, are already easily capped from other gear, and are obviously not your strong point. Not to forget that crusaders are the only ones that have healing buffs that proc from casting a healing spell, or in the shadowknights situation, additional hate gain when it's not wanted. In a raid, if the paladin is healing, you have some serious issues, unless he is MAing and giving additional supplement wards to the MT in between hits.

After you compare all of those negatives to what the warriors; especially the guardian, face, and you can easily see which class got boned diagonally.

And if *ALL* of that is not enough to handicap the crusaders, we also get criticized and trashed when we loot something like the Praetor's Guard, even though you and everyone else fully agrees that we are half casters. Now, logically, if a class casts spells, it would benefit from a spell caster item. But when a caster item drops that is known to be the #2 best dps symbol for a paladin, and the paladin wants to roll on it, people get all sorts of pissed off and cry about the fact that we roll on shit that is useful for us. If anything, people should be giving major props to those few paladins out there that despite the outrageous odds against them, still maintain their integrity, honesty and are respectful for others even in the face of all this crusader hater-aid we're all drowning in, and can still manage to tank very well in the middle of all the immature noobs flaming us for playing the way we are built and intended to.

http://www.eq2flames.com/rate-retard...cherblock.html

And with that, my final statement is that if you want to talk crap about a class, learn about it and play it all the way through first because you obviously do not know anything at all other than what you read about them. Or if you have played one all the way through, then you are even more ignorant than you make yourself out to be. Now go run along and play in the guardian forum, and let the crusaders discuss the crusader topic, not humor someone that wants to ignorantly argue an invalid point regardless of the proof against them. Don't even bother trying to flame me in return because I will not dignify it with a response beyond this point. Good day, and good night.

Orochan · 04-19-2008, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demented Penguin

Guapo1, I'm going to say this as politely as possible and in as small and simple of words as possible as to hopefully better help you understand what the concern and topic is about.

Keep in mind that all of the opinions about "fixing" the crusaders have come from those knowledgeable of the class comparing the class to the others overall, and not just one single attribute that we think could be tweaked a little.

As a warrior, the main focus is on str, sta, and agi. Of course most of the plate gear with these stats already have more HP and have something like aggression or parry that boost the gear, but none the less, it is for all intensive purposes "Tank Gear". There are also pieces that have +melee crit, +CA damage, +Attack speed, etc that would make these pieces "DPS Gear". Each type of gear is meant for a different type of fight or purpose obviously, otherwise there wouldn't be a need to have these various things.

As a crusader, we were made to do a variety of things so that we could be more versatile and fit multiple roles. Because of this, we were given some spells, some combat arts, some heals, some tank abilities, some dps features, and some meat shield features. The problem that is now occurring though, is that we need all 5 stats equally as much, and we need a lot more power than the conventional warrior because our spells and other abilities that we use to tank take up a lot more power in order to equal the same effect or damage output. We also were designed to tank based on manipulating the threat positions and using hate transfers purely because if we had been given any form of serious dps, it would have made the class way overpowered. Now the current problems comes into play and we are leaving this brief history lesson.

Because of the way things have progressed, almost every raid is now based on the tank doing a lot of dps to supplement the fact that the taunts do not hit often enough or are not strong enough to keep hate off of the mages / predators. Also, with all the threat reduction buffs that are being put on all the gear, it limits the amount of agro for us to use to transfer, and thus makes it a lot harder for us to hold agro. Additionally, because the majority of the crusader skills have not increased proportionately equal to those of the other classes, especially the dps classes are doing such phenomenal dps and / or generating so much more hate in comparison to the old days when we were designed that our current tools and skills are just not enough to tank alone. At this point, we rely on the other classes abilities and raid setups to supplement these deficiencies until such a day has come where we get balanced out, or get a skill such as Hold the Aggression, or more taunts / faster reuse timers on smaller taunts that will assist in filling in the gaps especially on mem-wipe mobs that completely counter everything that we build upon.

In addition to the system penalizing us for how we were created and how our class operates, we were originally given lesser versions of some heals instead of skills like the guardian's ToS or Guardian Sphere. On solo mobs, the heals may be a little better in some cases, but when you're talking about those huge hits for 3k damage from epics, keep in mind that the crusaders BEST ward is for 1.5k damage, and takes a loooong time to cast for a fighter class skill, and unfortunately has an equally long recast for how ineffective it is. If you're facing something other than a solo mob, that ward starts to look pretty pathetic, and thats basically out primary defensive skill.

In addition, the crusader's mythicals are the only ones that do not have a damage proc, are the only ones that do not have a "defensive bonus" on them such as the +10 defense, the pali's +6 melee crit is still trumped by both of the warriors 8%, the total # of stats and health/power is lowest on the crusaders compared to all of the other fighters, and imho a 5 shield effectiveness bonus way trumps a 100 CA bonus especially when your CAs only do 300-600 damage, are already easily capped from other gear, and are obviously not your strong point. Not to forget that crusaders are the only ones that have healing buffs that proc from casting a healing spell, or in the shadowknights situation, additional hate gain when it's not wanted. In a raid, if the paladin is healing, you have some serious issues, unless he is MAing and giving additional supplement wards to the MT in between hits.

After you compare all of those negatives to what the warriors; especially the guardian, face, and you can easily see which class got boned diagonally.

And if *ALL* of that is not enough to handicap the crusaders, we also get criticized and trashed when we loot something like the Praetor's Guard, even though you and everyone else fully agrees that we are half casters. Now, logically, if a class casts spells, it would benefit from a spell caster item. But when a caster item drops that is known to be the #2 best dps symbol for a paladin, and the paladin wants to roll on it, people get all sorts of pissed off and cry about the fact that we roll on shit that is useful for us. If anything, people should be giving major props to those few paladins out there that despite the outrageous odds against them, still maintain their integrity, honesty and are respectful for others even in the face of all this crusader hater-aid we're all drowning in, and can still manage to tank very well in the middle of all the immature noobs flaming us for playing the way we are built and intended to.

http://www.eq2flames.com/rate-retard...cherblock.html

And with that, my final statement is that if you want to talk crap about a class, learn about it and play it all the way through first because you obviously do not know anything at all other than what you read about them. Or if you have played one all the way through, then you are even more ignorant than you make yourself out to be. Now go run along and play in the guardian forum, and let the crusaders discuss the crusader topic, not humor someone that wants to ignorantly argue an invalid point regardless of the proof against them. Don't even bother trying to flame me in return because I will not dignify it with a response beyond this point. Good day, and good night.

Quoted for complete and total truth.

Ower · 04-19-2008, 06:10 AM

Crusaders have alot of crit both spell melee and heal from their AA line. Stats you get some from buffs and other stuff. So i really dont see that you need 5 stats and warriors 3. CA/spell + Well you are caped easy so you really dont need to put that much in it. They have more in rok than befor aswell. Since moste of the gear have Int or spell+ on it. As far for power. Have you played a zerk? Do that then you can come back and talk about power issues. Thats the only tank class that are abit shity in power since AD (even if it is a nice spell) drain so much. Power isent a big issue at all tho so i have no idea why you even posted it.

As far for hate Pallys dont have a problem with agro. SK are abit less lucky on that point. But the epic was a nice add on for that. As for avoidance traks shield anyone? that will help out alot for crusaders in the avoidance. The helmet from targ is nice aswell with 5% shield block on it.

And yes i know you need something. The only thing im getting pist about is when ppl are saying that it takes less skill to play Guards and stuff like that. I know many of you might not agree with me now when i say guards have to be broken if we shouldent put out DPS. As i have said a number of times. We need the dps to hold agro. And i wouldent care less if i did 0 dps and could do my job anyway. Main focus of a tank is holding agro and staying alive.

The problem with not moving and casting spells are that big imo. The long casting times on it is imo. Other issues is that 2handers are kinda weak. Since some classes can DW 2handers is not needed for them.

The fix to it would be lower the casting time some on your spells.
Fixing the AA so you have a DA line with a 2hander. Or as the post said in the pally forum about using 2handers with a shield in the range slot. And make the epic a 2hander.

Narkle · 04-19-2008, 06:15 AM

You have to be insane if you dont think it takes less skill to MT a raid with a guard then playing an SK MT on a raid...I love my SK and we really do need some work...If I wanted easier I would roll a guard and I am not just saying this to be a prick

Ower · 04-19-2008, 06:20 AM

SK is a off tank tho. And imo its easier to heal a guard. Alot easier. But that has nothing to do with skills on the tank. Since if you dont have the skills any tank class would suck balls.

Narkle · 04-19-2008, 06:27 AM

Yes I agree if you dont have the skills any tank class sucks...But I have MT'd this entire game (like 75% of RoK) and there is 0 reason we should be forced to be an OT...TBH if they just tweaked us a little like matching our avoid with a guards avoid capability and like its been said 10000 times in this thread...Give us a little more dps (and I don't mean DW just in general)...I would be 100% happy with my class

Ower · 04-19-2008, 06:40 AM

You can get better avoidance tho(better than what you have still not close to a guard). Loads of stuff with shield block on it atm.