Narkle

I can max self buff to only 58% avoid and thats with full adorns, demonguard BP etc etc...Our myth needs to have block on it and I really hope they change it...I am a huge HP/Avoid whore...It's all I focus on and SKs need to be thrown a bone in that department

Steel

Because you seem to be more level headed by far than gaupo1 and hopefully he has finally had time to read demented penguin's post to understand what casting means, i would like to point out a few things if i may. From what i can see on shadowknight side versus paladin, a paladin will own the majority of shadowknights in health and avoidance, we have the block AA in paladin side to boost shield effectiveness by 24% and we have AA enhanced self health buff for extra 700 plus health. From comparing buffs and average gear i would say that grouped together with all 6 tank classes in a group a paladin will have the most health(as guardians are group buff), followed by guardian,bruiser/monk, berserker/shadowknight.

When saying a berserker uses the most power of the fighter classes, are you counting adrenaline or not? If so then yeah with the way SOE devised it it will drain his power quicker than any fighter can do, but comparing berserker combat arts power usage to the higher cost spells and combat arts that crusaders use there is no contest. If you would like we can post our normal power cost of both paladin and shadowknight abilities to berserker and guardian ones to see which sucks power more. By the nature of the crusader class we supposedly have a larger power pool by having 2 stats that give power, but in practice, the 1 to 1 ratio on stats do not yield as much power as the single stat of a warrior. We generally need more stats to not only tank with health and avoidance, but to also maintain power from higher str/wis on paladins and str/int on shadowknights plus needing higher int to do higher damage on 1/3rd to 1/4th of our damage in spells.

To help on this we need power free options to help boost our damage without sacrificing our survival skills we have, hence have a double attack line that we have mentioned before. It should not be tied to 2 hander only as unless it gives a like amount of uncontested reposte we will be worse off than before on surviving encounters. I mentioned earlier in the posts on what could be changed in the wisdom line that would help out alot on making that line more usable with no ill effects to other tanks. I think many would agree that a 67 health regen per 6 second time on the 4th ability is pretty much wasted space on the AA line.

From talking to other paladins, we do not want a 2 hander epic, we just want our 1 hander to have the combat art damge replaced with a more useful survival item like 2% block or something. If shadowknights want a two hander epic, make sure that SOE puts some survival on it if you wish to stay up long enough to enjoy the damage on it...:-)

I think Guapo1's problem is he plays in a very small box on what he sees players should do, i hope he can improve on that to be a better player in the game and realize that crusaders are not out to "get him"...:-)

Demented Penguin

I'm actually leaning more towards revamping the agility line for the DA and/or other bonuses to be put into. And mostly it is for 2 main reasons; first being that while in raid, if you die once, (which if your a crusader, or in a high rok zone, thats pretty much a given scenario) you can no longer have a mount, and thus half the aa line becomes wasted. Trample is still handy because the pali is used for multi-mob tanking on certain encounters or zones that require it, so leave trample as is. Maybe add an additional affect to the 4th line that while the effect is active, have a bonus chance to reposte frontal attacks and parry the other quadrants or something, and as far as the end line goes, I personally don't see any true value to it other than the big melee hit on it. If you get engaged on a paladin, you pretty much have to fight it. On an sk you can fd it off, in which case there really wouldn't be any point to having a melee attack that slowed the target. Especially since the a good portion of the sks big attacks are spells, and have thus been geared to reflect it.

Personally, I use the mirror of reflected achievements to spec down the wiz line when I slave myself out as a healer. With lots of overloaded heal gear, and the reduce cast time of beneficial effect gear, you can heal pretty decently. I ran in a chelsith group with a raiding fury, and my pali as the healers. The end heal parse was Fury: 1.2m heals, Pali: 450k heals. The bonus to 38 skills from the 3rd aa (8 aa into it) helps boost the groups effectiveness greatly, and that additional 16% base hp regen plus 77hp per tick more, although small, does help out. It will take the group from being at about 50hp/tick to being about 150hp/tick, or if theres a bruiser and trouby/dirge in the group, you'll be sitting up around 300-500hp/tick. The 69 disrupt/subj from the claymore reward on mages does actually increase overall dps by a decent chunk. And finally, the end ability, where it gives the whole group an additional 2% to all damage and heals and makes the paladin immune to fear is amazingly invaluable for raids as a MA.

As it is now, if you raid seriously, the only beneficial affect that the agility line gives is the initial agility, and trample, and even those are limited benefits. If anything needs to be considered for a revamping for raid usefullness, it would be that line.

__________________
A raid consists of 24 players all supporting each other with the goal to kill the mob, survive, and get loot. NOT 23 slaves purely to make the guardian parse higher.

Post count does not indicate your intelligence, it just shows how many times you've pushed the submit button. Your intelligence is shown by the words and ideas portrayed by the arguments you make.

Narkle

Yea revamping AGI line would be nice..Have joust give a 30 second parry/defense buff or something with a one minute recast instead of teleporting would be a nice start...I really don't understand why SoE can't throw SK's a bone for once..Hell they even just ninja nerfed devouring mist those fucking bastards

guapo1

The very exact same reason i been getting pist off.Yes we all know sks need a revamp.But you want your cake and ice cream to.You have been bashing guards abilities when infact the problem is soe fucked up your class not properly balanceing them out.Guardians do have a higher dps now im not saying we dont.You need / want revamp fine do it with out bashing outher classes.Saying guardians take no skill, we are a cheesy mode tank is far from the truth.

Narkle

Tanking period takes skill..It's just easier to do it as a guard is everyones point...You get awesome dps and uber survivalbility...As a guard when you are tanking you have more "mellow times" as with an SK you have to get blisters from non-stop spamming and you can't even blink half the time or you die or lose agro...I just wanna be on par with guards for DPS is all

guapo1

Nice way to turn things around.First off it was you bitching and moaning that crusaders should be able to move and cast.I was explaining to you how you are infact both a fighter /spell caster.No outher spell casters are allowed to cast and move why should you.I know what recast timers are on every ones ability i also know the difference between a pure melee class and, one that is known to be a fighter/mage arch type.

guapo1

This is where i have agreed with you all along, but just increaseing your dps is not enough.You also do need some outher fixes that gives support to a full raid to be more of a use in raids.

Giralus

an Sk's use in a raid is as a Tank , we dont need utility, we arent a buff bot,we dont need a special ability that forces raids to bring an Sk, we need some tweaks/improvements to our skills/aa's to allow us to perform are job in an equal fashion to other tanks, no we dont need to have equal Survivability as a guard to perform it(as has been proven since sk's have tanked nearly everything in the game) but we do need adjustments to close the gap between Sk's and other Tanks

a tank should be picked on there skill , not becuase they have a Utility that grants them a magical spot, you don't just use any old Guardian to MT a raid, you find a Guardian that is skilled with there class and knows how to Tank in a raid, the same is true for any other tank, the issue in Rok is that there is no way with the skills/aa's/dps that sk's are doing that they can equal other tanks in the same positions of mt or ot .

sk's don't need a re-vamp, they aren't broken, easiest fix is to change there offensive and defensive stances to balance them out for more dps in offensive and more agro/survivabilty in Defensive ( Our Defensive stance is a Joke)
just minor changes to them , in Defensive would not give SK's the Survivabilty of a Guardian, or the Agro abilities of a Paladin and in Offensive it would increase our single target Dps ( ae dps also but we would still need to be in DPS gear to put up big numbers so our survivabilty would be low)

we are just looking for some minor improvements to be able to Compete

Narkle

SKs don't need a total revamp...Something similar on the level of the upcoming Coercer revamp is needed imho