The fix to crusaders being left in the dust for DPS... - Page 8

Meat · 03-16-2008, 08:54 PM

Idk, I was told OT..

Deule · 03-16-2008, 09:40 PM

Yes guilds are using Guards as OT's a lot now. Lol I talked to one of fallen's core players and asked him about the Guard OT and it was a simple answer. They hold agro just as good and can take a lot more when tanking. Sure on multiple add OT situations a Paladin with Amends on the Warlock, a Zerker or a SK will grab them faster than a Guard will, but shit any type of hard adds a Guard for an OT is definitely gonna grab it and hold it and take the hits. Not to mention once a Crusader is tanking and going defensive their DPS sucks ass. A guard with their Mythical can still get the nice DA line and run Tower shield giving them much more survivability and DPS.

Again though, my biggest beef is for when a Crusader is not tanking. Most of this content in game is designed for one MT and than a small amount is designed for an OT as well. When not running in a tank type roll SK's specifically are behind the ball for DPS to make sure that they are bringing enough to the raid to have a spot in the raid. DW was my suggestion for this, beefing up 2h weapons tremendously would be another suggestion, changing up the stances to be much more useful would be another suggestion. All I am saying is that there is definitely a problem when the SK class drops down to being the second worst fighter for DPS when they have always been recognized as the more offensive plate fighter along with the Zerker. Having some of the worst avoidance and not having the temp buffs warriors have makes even more reason that SK should definitely be parsing higher than Pallies, Zerks, and Guards...and I would also argue that the Monk mit boost on their epic along with their awesome avoidance would mean that a SK should parse higher than them as well.

This is the problem, some people are definitely having some good ideas for the fix and I would appreciate hearing more of those.

Ower · 03-17-2008, 10:21 AM

To have a guard as OT Doesent mean you OT adds with it. since you can have more than one OT.

And Deule so you think if Crusaders get DW ppl would start to use them more? There are loads of crusaders on top end raid guilds atm.. SK:s not that i know of but pallys for sure. And cry more over avoidance?? get better gear and you can easy tank adds as an SK. Its so much easier with a pally tho.. but it has nothing to do with the dps.

And the only problem there is atm and always been... there are to many classes. Fighter classes for sure... since you only need 2 or 3 on a raid.

Deule · 03-17-2008, 12:29 PM

Ower that is why your thinking is completely blind. SOE could give to some of the fighter classes to have them wanted on raids atm. Why are 4 bards wanted so much? What if it was reversed and having more than 2 bards was a waste? Why are 3-4 illusionists wanted on raids? What if it was made so that having more than 1 was a waste? I am not saying nerf these classes but they are obviously given plenty of abilities to be needed at the raid level. The raid-wide fighter buffs were a good start, if only they wouldn't have made them such useless abilities. Right now the only role a fighter has on a raid is for tanking, and that is the problem. Change it so that when fighters are not tanking they bring a lot more to the table. This means more DPS when they are offensive mode and more utility. For example, why not give SK's a 40% hate transfer to another fighter? Bam, guess what you just gave that fighter more means to be on the raid, setting him up to be the pick-up tank as well should something happen to the MT.

The argument of there being to many classes is lame. Shit like having 4 bards and 4 enchanters on a raid is what is messed up making it so there definitely isn't room for the other fighters. There is so much SOE could do to fix these problems and the DW to Crusaders is just one example....believe me I would not be asking for it if 2h'ers were actually doing the DPS that they should be compared to DW'ing.

Rokkual · 03-17-2008, 04:16 PM

I don't care either way on the dual wield thing. My suggestion to "fix" crusaders is to give us an AA line sort of like buckler line, but in reverse. A line that gives us better defensive ability while using a 2 hander, this would put us in a better position to off tank or pick up a mob when in DPS mode imo.

On another note, AoC seems to have really nice ideas to make all tanks needed in raids, gotta check that out!

Ower · 03-17-2008, 07:16 PM

A question... why do you roll a tank? to dps?? erm no... so you could easy say aslong as you dont make mobs that you need 6 tanks on some classes will be left outside to dps or not in at all.

From the part using a guard as OT over a crusader or zerk is bull imo... some might do tho. What you need to understand if you think its lame to say that the game have to many classes is how in hell can they do raids when you need all the classes and still make them fun?? If you roll a tank you do it to tank. And sure i agree its kinda shity that some classes get left outside in the dust... I still dont see any wrong with the SK dps... as i have said... i have seen SK:s do some sick dps on raids. Pallys? well they dont have the same dps... but they can still put out some dps.. and they have LOADS of aggro spell.

Xavion · 03-17-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ower

...If you roll a tank you do it to tank. And sure i agree its kinda shity that some classes get left outside in the dust... I still dont see any wrong with the SK dps... as i have said... i have seen SK:s do some sick dps on raids. Pallys? well they dont have the same dps... but they can still put out some dps.. and they have LOADS of aggro spell.

/agree

Everyone wants to play a particular class, but they also want their class to be # 1 or 2 on the raid dps, which is stupid. Some people need to go back to when they first made their toon and remember what their class description said on the character select screen. I really get tired of everything being from the "raid-only" mindset on these forums. Most people would probably be fairly happy overall with their toons if they weren't so blinded by their own image of what their class should be like in a raid.

You can't have it all.

Deule · 03-17-2008, 09:10 PM

Believe me SK's are far from asking for it all. We want to compete. Ok, if you want me to say hell yes I am a tank and I want to be able to tank as well as a Guard and have an easy time doing it, than yes that is what I want. However, from what SOE has shown us and what most of the player-base believe...Guards should be THE MT on raids. Ok....well than there we go, what do you do with a class that is told from the beginning that all fighters will tank equally, just by different means, and than have the game completely destroy that notion? Ok, to the OT role...well shit for the longest time Bezerkers made awesome OT's because they could put out sick DPS and didn't have agro problems like SK's did for the longest time...other than that the Amends ability and slightly more survivability helped Paladins out for the OT role as well.

My argument to you is that I have had to constantly change my toon to play what SOE deems I should be doing. SOE didn't want to give SK's the ability they needed to tank for quite a while so I concentrated on DPS more to make sure that I could bring more value to the raid. Now, come RoK the SK has gotten a little more to help them OT, and everything looked like it was rolling well until the fucking Mythicals showed up. Everybody sees the Guard mythical and goes OMFG now that is what a Mythical should look like. Again SK's move to the back of the short bus...and for once since the launch of the game I actually see Zerks sitting not too far ahead of me as a side note. Guards hands down are the raid MT, and arguably the best OT.

Ok, so SOE has made it clear that once again SK's need to come up with more ways to make themselves useful on raids instead of just being able to tank. Hence, this entire post to try and help fix some of the disparities that have been in game since launch, and with the intro to Mythicals becomes even more pronounced. Giving SK's the ability to DW would by no means make them over-powered, I honestly wonder if there is anything SOE could do to make us so....the ones that really mind seem to be the ones that are coming from a RP stand-point...and at that point you have to ask yourselve what is an accurate description of a SK than. Because there are a lot of different ideas on what a RP SK is...one I would think is in the heat of battle the SK saying fuck this, dropping his shield and pulling out one of his other weapons in his vast arsenal to finish off a foe even quicker.

I don't want to do T1 DPS, but I do want to DPS high in the fighter ranks, and I sure as hell don't want to be out parsed by utility-loaded classes, i.e. troubs and illu.

Xavion · 03-17-2008, 09:26 PM

Ok, after giving it some thought... I could maybe think of one thing I would like to see for SK's to be completely honest. Since I do not raid anymore, this is more one for group SK's and not really for raiders. I miss my Deathtouch actually making an impact on most heroic mobs. In RoK, it seems to have a very weak impact on most named mobs in the instances I run, and that really erks me. If they could change it to be more of a "chance do do 25-40% damage to target's health", or something like that (scaling with each spell upgrade), it would be great. I can't remember the last time it had that much of an affect on a heroic named in Kunark, if at all.

Steel · 03-18-2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deule

Believe me SK's are far from asking for it all. We want to compete. Ok, if you want me to say hell yes I am a tank and I want to be able to tank as well as a Guard and have an easy time doing it, than yes that is what I want. However, from what SOE has shown us and what most of the player-base believe...Guards should be THE MT on raids. Ok....well than there we go, what do you do with a class that is told from the beginning that all fighters will tank equally, just by different means, and than have the game completely destroy that notion? Ok, to the OT role...well shit for the longest time Bezerkers made awesome OT's because they could put out sick DPS and didn't have agro problems like SK's did for the longest time...other than that the Amends ability and slightly more survivability helped Paladins out for the OT role as well.

My argument to you is that I have had to constantly change my toon to play what SOE deems I should be doing. SOE didn't want to give SK's the ability they needed to tank for quite a while so I concentrated on DPS more to make sure that I could bring more value to the raid. Now, come RoK the SK has gotten a little more to help them OT, and everything looked like it was rolling well until the fucking Mythicals showed up. Everybody sees the Guard mythical and goes OMFG now that is what a Mythical should look like. Again SK's move to the back of the short bus...and for once since the launch of the game I actually see Zerks sitting not too far ahead of me as a side note. Guards hands down are the raid MT, and arguably the best OT.

Ok, so SOE has made it clear that once again SK's need to come up with more ways to make themselves useful on raids instead of just being able to tank. Hence, this entire post to try and help fix some of the disparities that have been in game since launch, and with the intro to Mythicals becomes even more pronounced. Giving SK's the ability to DW would by no means make them over-powered, I honestly wonder if there is anything SOE could do to make us so....the ones that really mind seem to be the ones that are coming from a RP stand-point...and at that point you have to ask yourselve what is an accurate description of a SK than. Because there are a lot of different ideas on what a RP SK is...one I would think is in the heat of battle the SK saying fuck this, dropping his shield and pulling out one of his other weapons in his vast arsenal to finish off a foe even quicker.

I don't want to do T1 DPS, but I do want to DPS high in the fighter ranks, and I sure as hell don't want to be out parsed by utility-loaded classes, i.e. troubs and illu.

Just to clarify, the OP has mislabeled this thread, he is a SHADOWKNIGHT that is asking for DPS increase because of SHADOWKNIGHT issues he sees. It is not a CRUSADER issue but specifically his subclass that he thinks needs boosted. Secondly if you want a boost in crusader damage you dont ask for dual wielding attacks you ask to have the crusader AA line modified to allow for Double Attacks on it like the other 4 fighter classes have. Modify the AGI 4th or 5th lines to have some Double attack and that could be solved. If the issue is more dps without sacrificing tankability, why the hell would you want to lose the block percentage of a shield to dual wield weapons as a crusader? If you want to make 2 hander tanking more effective you have to place a stance or a buff that requires it and can give similar avoidance as a shield to it. At this late point in the game i find it unlikely they would overhaul crusaders to accomadate this, so a easier solution is to have a double attack AA line or remove double attack from all fighter lines. Shadowknights can hardly call themselves crusaders anymore, there is very little things that make shadowknights similar to paladains and they need to move on with their terminology. Ask for your double attack if you want to use the crusader term or look at it as shadowknight only and ask for int enhancing gear, we stoppeed being crusaders quite a few Game Updates ago Deule...:-)