The fix to crusaders being left in the dust for DPS... - Page 9

Rokkual · 03-19-2008, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xavion

Some people need to go back to when they first made their toon and remember what their class description said on the character select screen.

Well, back when I made my sk, SOE said all tanks would be different playstyle, but still have the same tanking ability. Still waiting for this one to come to fruition.

shadowgeist · 03-19-2008, 11:01 AM

I think the general issue now with SK (And Paladins) is that we can tank or we can dps, but now that we can't switch gear mid-combat, we can't be relied on to do both in the same fight.

With tank gear on my dps is significantly lower.
I'm talking like 2k-3k in dps gear compared to 800-1.5k in full tank gear and defensive stance.
This makes logical sense.

Compare this to a Warrior that parses 2.5k+ either way though...... yah.

Crusaders aren't broken. Warriors are.

EvilIguana966 · 03-19-2008, 01:58 PM

One of the biggest problems with crusaders is that if a warrior wants to increase his damage by X he increases his strength by 50 points. If a crusader wants to do the same he increases his strength and int both by 50 points. The same is true in other areas. A warrior gets 50 CA damage and all his abilities go up by 50, a crusader gets 50 CA damage and half his abilities go up by 50.

Several things should be done to solve this. First, combine certain types of bonuses on items. Combine CA damage and spell damage into a single stat: ability damage, that works on spells and combat arts. Do the same for crits, no more spell/melee/ranged crit, just flat crit chance. Second, increase crusader spell/CA damage to make up for the fact that we still have to raise 2 stats for warriors' one.

Demented Penguin · 03-19-2008, 06:30 PM

I'm only really familiar with a pali, so this post is a little pali heavy, but it has something for everyone in it. It's just excessively long.

As a crusader, we don't have outstanding taunts, damage, mitigation, avoidance, aas, i.e. basically nothing of ours is special. But what we do have is a variety of things that we can do and that is where the class's strength is; a little bit for all purposes. The problem is that SOE is itemizing everything to be only for 1 purpose wether it be healing, spells, melee, tanking, w/e. They need to put some crusader only gear in that balances out the fact that we were designed to swap our gear around depending on what the situation calls for. Or screw the crusader only thing, and make it for anyone, but just make sure it has those important stats that we need.

For example, in chelsith, I swapped my wis gear in and rolled as a second healer for our guard. The fury was raid geared with all ad3 and some masters and a pretty good one versus my quest reward gear and crap ad1 spells and heals because I don't fancy spending 6 plat on silicates for 20-100 damage/heal per spell since it is absolutely not worth it. The heal parse was fury: 1.28 million, me: 390k. Alot of those were spot heals where things started to get ugly and I threw in some heals or a big nuke heal now and then to keep the guard up. Thats a very respectable amount of heals from a tank class and especially one with poor spells. On the other hand, I've tanked epic fights, tanked instances, tanked a couple raids. But now, in RoK, all the gear is designed to boost either the melee fighters stats/bonuses, or the mage/healers stats/bonuses, or give offensive boosts and procs like tank/scout jewelry. Absolutely nothing in between for the crusaders.

Unlike the other classes, the crusader NEEDS to have access to multiple different pieces of gear with different stregnths and be able to swap them in and out, because that is what our class was made to do. Its like taking the poop out of a seagull; it just wont be able to crap all over people like they're meant to. It also doesn't help either that our AAs are still utility at best versus all the other fighter classes that get mad dps from theirs, nor does it help that our Mythical is effectively a healer weapon with a recycled healer pet clicky effect for palis and a hate magnet that appears to work completely opposite of what a SK would want it to do. (because i'm not totally affluent with the sk, I'm basing on best judgement)

Then you have the other fighter classes that have AAs that give insane damage, the guard mythical which removes the detrimental part of the guardian's BUCKLER line and gives them more damage reduce as if the absorb on their spells wasn't enough, their mythicals also have a huge damage proc, more stats, more hp/power, more bonuses, and are actually TANK weapons, and all the gear drops are more orriented towards them. /rant end.

IMHO, I believe the best possible fix that EQ2 could possibly see is if it was mandated that there be at least 1 dev per class that played that class actively. That way, you wouldn't have updates and expansions with dumb ass itemization that hurts the class the more you progress, or if you did, the person doing the updates would notice by their own experience of it. Also, if SOE really wants only the guardian to MT, why not put it in the class description and just get it over with? That is just plain cruel and unusual punishment to sit there and dangle in front of us the "someday maybe you could be MT for a raid.... until we nerf bat the hell out of you once you find an effective way to do so." All I want is for the next time that I'm lfg, or I post in the channels "80 pali lf anything" people don't respond "Yuck, a paper tank." because I have this insane dream that just maybe you could chose what method you'd like to tank with, and just maybe have some purpose rather than have it stuffed down your throat that you have to be a guard or suffer in silence.

Giralus · 03-20-2008, 09:33 PM

i dont see crusaders getting an Entire AA line

i dont see itemization coming anytime soon

i dont see all the minor tweaks to individual abilities/skils to even out the disparities coming anytime soon

why i recomended that the Devs add to our Offensive stance and Defensive stance . its the quickest , easiest .simpelest, way to boost up Shadowknights (i dont play a paladin so i leave that up to you all ) , if done correctly it would actualy Make our Defensive stance something that Sk's would USE , as it is now 98 % of Sk's i know Almost never go defensive becuase its patheticly weak and underpowered, and our offensive doesn't boost our DPS up anywhere near enough to compensate for 50 % spell 50 % CA needs.

just a few minor additions to both stances would say " SK MT you will Want to use defensive stance (becuase Dev's have said since release Tank Equaly but by differant methods) Want to OT or DPS then you definitly want to use Offensive stance . as it is now both are Weak and defensive is a Joke , i posted up some quick ideas back on page 3 or 4 of this thread , took me 5 minutes so im sure the dev's could look take a read thru of the issues , determine about what Percantage of differance there is in Tank ability and Dps ability and increase our stances to accomidate for them, and with proper itemization when equaly geared/Masterd it would be down to Player Skill with the class who is the better MT/OT/DPS.. instead of being restricted by weak skills/stances/aa lines/etc...

anyway i wont hold my breath : )

P.s. Dev's would probably do something totaly retarded instead like mess with how combat mechanics in eq2 work.. O wait..... http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-disc...s-changes.html : ( be afriad be very very afraid

Lopann · 03-21-2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deule

Lopann, yes DPS is achievable, but it takes a lot to do it. It takes dropping a lot of defensive ability and getting into the right group. And for all of you out there saying I must not know what I am doing believe me I do. I hit 5k+ parses at times...however as a fucking SK I give up so much defense to do it you might as well put me in chain.

In all honesty it takes maybe 2 seconds to go from being fully offensive to being fully defensive. All you need is a dirge to put up some good numbers, which you should have in an OT group, aswell as 2 healers that should be able to keep you up if your armour is decent. All it takes is swapping a stance and putting a shield on, then wait a sec for your sword, and bam 2 seconds later your ready to tank some shit. Just use DA for the transition...

As for DW to crusaders, thats just retarded, a good 2h (not this shit we have been getting out of T8 zones or contested (new valor 2h? what the fuck is that shit)) all we need is 1 good 2h to bring it back, bottom line.

Catseyes · 03-21-2008, 06:44 AM

think that crusaders, as forced to 2H, should have both new 2handers and an AA line that would increase both defensive and offensive skills.
And things that would compensate the loose of shield.
uncontested bonus on riposts / block / parry , higher crits ,some abilities like bladedance or inpenetrable but adjusted to their class.

Dev's should work to increase this side , making 2hander a viable solution in both defensive and offensive ways and at time (as in fight you cannot switch stuff anymore).

If crusaders are forced to use 2H, make them specialists of 2H, with epic 2H (may be ?). Wasnt SK epic in eq1 a 2hand ?

Ower · 03-21-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demented Penguin

I'm only really familiar with a pali, so this post is a little pali heavy, but it has something for everyone in it. It's just excessively long.

As a crusader, we don't have outstanding taunts, damage, mitigation, avoidance, aas, i.e. basically nothing of ours is special. But what we do have is a variety of things that we can do and that is where the class's strength is; a little bit for all purposes. The problem is that SOE is itemizing everything to be only for 1 purpose wether it be healing, spells, melee, tanking, w/e. They need to put some crusader only gear in that balances out the fact that we were designed to swap our gear around depending on what the situation calls for. Or screw the crusader only thing, and make it for anyone, but just make sure it has those important stats that we need.

For example, in chelsith, I swapped my wis gear in and rolled as a second healer for our guard. The fury was raid geared with all ad3 and some masters and a pretty good one versus my quest reward gear and crap ad1 spells and heals because I don't fancy spending 6 plat on silicates for 20-100 damage/heal per spell since it is absolutely not worth it. The heal parse was fury: 1.28 million, me: 390k. Alot of those were spot heals where things started to get ugly and I threw in some heals or a big nuke heal now and then to keep the guard up. Thats a very respectable amount of heals from a tank class and especially one with poor spells. On the other hand, I've tanked epic fights, tanked instances, tanked a couple raids. But now, in RoK, all the gear is designed to boost either the melee fighters stats/bonuses, or the mage/healers stats/bonuses, or give offensive boosts and procs like tank/scout jewelry. Absolutely nothing in between for the crusaders.

Unlike the other classes, the crusader NEEDS to have access to multiple different pieces of gear with different stregnths and be able to swap them in and out, because that is what our class was made to do. Its like taking the poop out of a seagull; it just wont be able to crap all over people like they're meant to. It also doesn't help either that our AAs are still utility at best versus all the other fighter classes that get mad dps from theirs, nor does it help that our Mythical is effectively a healer weapon with a recycled healer pet clicky effect for palis and a hate magnet that appears to work completely opposite of what a SK would want it to do. (because i'm not totally affluent with the sk, I'm basing on best judgement)

Then you have the other fighter classes that have AAs that give insane damage, the guard mythical which removes the detrimental part of the guardian's BUCKLER line and gives them more damage reduce as if the absorb on their spells wasn't enough, their mythicals also have a huge damage proc, more stats, more hp/power, more bonuses, and are actually TANK weapons, and all the gear drops are more orriented towards them. /rant end.

IMHO, I believe the best possible fix that EQ2 could possibly see is if it was mandated that there be at least 1 dev per class that played that class actively. That way, you wouldn't have updates and expansions with dumb ass itemization that hurts the class the more you progress, or if you did, the person doing the updates would notice by their own experience of it. Also, if SOE really wants only the guardian to MT, why not put it in the class description and just get it over with? That is just plain cruel and unusual punishment to sit there and dangle in front of us the "someday maybe you could be MT for a raid.... until we nerf bat the hell out of you once you find an effective way to do so." All I want is for the next time that I'm lfg, or I post in the channels "80 pali lf anything" people don't respond "Yuck, a paper tank." because I have this insane dream that just maybe you could chose what method you'd like to tank with, and just maybe have some purpose rather than have it stuffed down your throat that you have to be a guard or suffer in silence.

For the first.. if you cant get in on instance groups as a pally maybe its you that suck on playing it? you dont fucking need the special OMFG buttons guards have for instance. You can hold much more aggro than any tank class in the game...

As far you think that SoE should state guards as MT? Well thats the guard thingy... protecting themself and others. Thats the fucking guard thing. And so why do you think ppl raid with guards as MT? Im getting fucking pist when i hear pallys cry over something like this... since THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PALLY CLASS. Some pallys understand this aswell. And love their class and the shit they got. But moste of you are only buthurt that you dident get the MT spot. Can you tank with a pally? YES. Even t4 raids. If you cant understand that your class is working and working GREAT. Then maybe its time to reroll.

Valanthe · 03-21-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopann

(new valor 2h? what the fuck is that shit)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sword of Pure Valor a tanking 2H as well? If so, this isn't a surprise, because it's just an upgrade on last tier.

Pinski · 03-21-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valanthe

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sword of Pure Valor a tanking 2H as well? If so, this isn't a surprise, because it's just an upgrade on last tier.

It's an upgrade, but it's a total piece of shit. 132 DR, when 1H Mythicals are 120 DR. That's pretty much garbage.