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Old 04-02-2008, 11:39 AM  
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Default Paladin DPS break down

I posted this in the Pally section to get an answer awhile back but no one could give a 100% answer to the question. Not sure if we just don't have a number cruncher guy as other classes do or if its just too complex for anyone to want to touch for a Crusader. Im lookin for a equation to compair Melee Crit, Double Attack, Spell Crit, Spell Dmg and +CA Dmg. To basically figure X amount of Melee Crit is = to X amount of Double Attack is = to X amount of Spell Crit is = X amount of + Spell Dmg is = to X amount of +CA Dmg. Now with that being said, I read the post from Daray where he posted his equation on the Wizard forums for how Spell Crit, +Spell Dmg affects their spells and DPS. I would assume this would be different b/c we are not pure casters like they are. There is also a good post on he Assassin forums discussing Melee Crit vs Double Attack for them that goes abit in depth on the subject.

I merged roughly 2 weeks worth of parses to get a break down of my DPS. This is what i came up with.

Auto Attack 42%
Procs 21%
Spells 19%
CA's 18%

So if have this right it would be broken down like this

Melee Crits affects 58% of my DPS
Double Attack affects 42% of my DPS
Spell Crits affects 40% of my DPS
+Spell Dmg affects 19% of my DPS
+CA Dmg affects 18% of my DPS

As you can see this is fairly complex b/c we are a Jack of all trade class as for a non hybrid only 3-4 of the 5 would affect them. I have plenty of parse data saved up for additional information you would need. I could post them here or send them in a PM to anyone willing to help me finally get to the answer of this.

Any help on this matter would be much obliged b/c this is beyond my skills of math.

Edited for grammer fiixes =/
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:38 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

With so many variables, I don't believe it is possible to get a straigh numeric answer for a paladin. It would have to be a (or several) functions of sort.

Also, those numbers are fairly close to my own, however they will differ alot due to different specs and group setups. The best you could really get is a very rough answer

Shouldn't melee crit be 60% of dps though?
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:22 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

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Originally Posted by Onra View Post
With so many variables, I don't believe it is possible to get a straigh numeric answer for a paladin. It would have to be a (or several) functions of sort.

Also, those numbers are fairly close to my own, however they will differ alot due to different specs and group setups. The best you could really get is a very rough answer

Shouldn't melee crit be 60% of dps though?
Normally when I use a 2 hander my auto attack dmg would be around 50-55% of my ZW so yeah that would make it more around 60%. Those figures were with our mythical tho.

As far as the variables such as group buffs etc. Yeah that makes it quite abit harder but you still should be able to get a idea on how they compair.
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Old 04-02-2008, 02:17 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

I think what Onra was saying Magnus was that your melee crit should not be stated as affecting 58% of your damage but 60% with the numbers you posted(auto attack 42% plus combat art 18% equals 60% total not 58%) Just cleaning up the math a little bit bud..:-)
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Old 04-02-2008, 03:14 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

another thing to remember mag is that your current auto attack takes into account the double attack bonus and melee crit bonus you already have, as well as the spells and procs taking into account their respective melee/spell crit bonus depending. also, when in groups set up with greater melee boosts, melee crit/DA will give a much greater bonus with high haste/dps mod values, where as in a more caster/proc oriented group your spells will be much higher on the list. the same goes for aoe fights like if you are constantly burning adds on an avatar vs single names, where the gap will widen even more, especially if you aren't agi speced, depending on group setup. its just to big a range of possibilities for a paladin to take into account to give a straight answer on. to be completely honest, most raiding paladins should do what you have done, being take a breakdown of your average dps over a long period of time (preferably with the same group setup/gear setup) and figure out what they are doing from where. if set up properly ACT will even tell you how many crits you landed, and you can figure out double attacks using some pretty basic math.
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:10 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

It's a headache to come up with a linear function comparing all the stats to each other, because many of the variables are codependent, and diminishing returns/hard caps muck everything up. And every class is going to be different, I have a rough equation in this thread for warlocks: http://www.eq2flames.com/warlocks/22...arlockery.html however the information within is not applicable to any other classes, with the possible exception of wizard. Likewise with Paladins you'd have to start with a ground-up analysis, for a 2H paladin (giving more weight to melee) to a 1H tanking paladin (giving more weight to long recast abilities) to a AE paladin (giving more weight to spells)

Your breakdown of:
Auto Attack 42%
Procs 21%
Spells 19%
CA's 18%

is alright, but you have to consider where your stats are currently right now. Do you have more spell crit than melee crit? Do you have Haste/DPSmod and where are you on diminishing returns? Are you capped on any of your spells/CAs? How often do you use AEs compared to single target?

And another thing you have to consider is how the stats will interact with each other. The extra damage you get from CA/SD is effected by crits. Haste/DPSmod only effects autoattack, but crits effect abilities as well. Spell crits work off of Max+30%, CAs get a flat +30, so spellcrits actually give a better return per-percentage point assuming base melee damage = base spell damage. Procs are alternatively affected by melee haste and spell haste. 2H setups are going to be skewed more towards autoattack, AE setups are going to be skewed more towards spells/procs. Crits are affected by the level of the mob, but CA/SD isn't; I have no clue about double attack.

I'm not saying its impossible to do, I'm just pointing out that even if you do crunch the numbers your results are really only going to be good for one specific class (possibly SKs as well, I'm not sure how they compare to pallys)
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:28 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
I think what Onra was saying Magnus was that your melee crit should not be stated as affecting 58% of your damage but 60% with the numbers you posted(auto attack 42% plus combat art 18% equals 60% total not 58%) Just cleaning up the math a little bit bud..:-)
Ah yes thx that is an oversight by me it was 40% slash and 2 % crush (mythical and 2h) and i forgot to add that on to the 58 % thx for
catchin that (readin when your tired ftl)

To Faxon

Yeah that is what i have always done to get an idea but the more i think about this the more i don't even want to touch it b/c of the massive amount of math =/

Edited
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:19 PM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahgnus View Post
To Faxon

Yeah that is what i have always done to get an idea but the more i think about this the more i don't even want to touch it b/c of the massive amount of math =/

Edited
amen to that lol. i usually just take into account how much auto attack im doing with what setup since i know a base line for what my spells and combat arts and procs do as a % of my zonewide in x situations, then base the rest of my gear choices off of that. the only thing thats generally speaking the same across the board is melee vs spell crit, with melee crit being > spell crit even on aoe fights (asuming agi spec)
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:15 AM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

I can't be exact without your parses, because Spell Damage and Combat art damage is directly tied to what portion of damage that combat art/spell does. But, I can do the autoattack part for you as an example, and then explain to you most of the rest it. It's not as difficult as you think - just very tedious.

So you're lucky I'm bored!

Ok, let's start off with autoattack, then move to spells/combat arts.

Autoattack damage is easiest mathematically to understand because it has less variables and each modifier is independent - and thus doesn't require specific order to calculate (at least from what I understand). I.e., mathematically, you could add in the double attack mod, the melee crit mod, haste and dps in any order and come out with the same result. For spell and combat art damage, this isn't the case because you have to calculate spell / combat art caps first, then add this bonus only after Spell Crit or Melee Crit.

First up would be calculating double attack. Double attack and melee crit are both linear and thus easy to calculate. Each point of DA increases your autoattack damage by 1%, while melee crit is based off your ratio of your weapon (or spell). I.e., DA Damage = Base Auto * (100% + DA Mod%). Melee Crit Damage = Base Auto * (100% + Melee Boost%). You can figure out the Melee Boost % using the ratio of the weapon's minimum and maximum damage (or spell/combat art, but we'll come back to that). We'll ignore the fact that the displayed Crit percent is actually less than real Crit percent due to mitigation from mob levels (you crit more on lower level mobs and less on higher mobs). For easymode, you can just use this chart after calculating the ratio: Now with Weapon DR calculation!: Critical Damage and You.. A guide to critical damage.

Well, we need to figure out the Base Auto first. From a quick inspect, it seems like you have 10% double attack and 50% melee crit and the Paladin mythical epic (I dunno if that's what you were wearing, but let's assume). I don't know if you had a bard in your group, nor do I know your haste/dps, though. (Thus my final results will be skewed, but if you get the same group all the time, still useable). The pally mythical is about a 1:5.63 ratio weapon (or 0.888:5 ratio), which means it gains 77% or so boost per point of melee crit. At 50% of a 77% boost would be a total of 38.5% boost. Thus the math here would be, Base Auto = 42% / 1.385% (melee boost) / 1.1% (da boost) = 27.6% of your total damage is from Autoattack unmodified by Crit or DA.

Reversing that, it means that at your raid-buffed Haste and DPS mod, each point of DA is about 0.276% DPS boost, and that each point of melee crit affected your autoattack about 0.234%. Thus, we can determine that about 3.6% DA = 1% DPS boost. For Melee Crit, we have to add in your bonus from melee crit from combat arts later to determine the overall boost per point for comparison purposes.

Spells and combat arts can actually be calculated the same, just with different numbers since your Crits and +Damage amounts are different. Spell attack for paladins can be annoying because of the fluctuating amount due to the paladin proc, but you could determine an average number with some math.

Spells and combat arts have different variables than Autoattack to factor in: Melee/Spell Crit, Casting haste, Reuse, Spell/Combat Art Damage, and Base Damage. Assuming you're always at the same base damage (probably 0% mod, since no one uses the Wis line) and casting and reuse (10% from end STR AA), then we can just ignore these factors for now.

Let's go to Crits first. Crits, as we learned with autoattack, are determined by the ratio. Paladin combat arts and spells are basically between a 3:5 and 4:5 ratio, thus between 30% and 35% increase. I'm too lazy to figure out the exact number, so let's just call is 33% increase.

Since you have 50% Melee Crit, (ignoring the fact that you don't get a full increase from orange mobs again and assuming no bard or other sources of crit in your parse) you get 50% of this 33% increase, or a 16.5% total increase. Although it's more clean to do it the normal way, we can reverse the amounts a bit to get a rough number. Reversing your 18% total you gave from CA as total part for damage, means that 116.5% * Base CA% = 18%. Thus, Base CA% = 16.45%, and 50% Melee Crit = 1.55% total increase to your CA%. Or, 1% Melee Crit = 0.031% boost. Added to the Autoattack portion, that means that with the Pally epic and Pally CA's, 1% Melee Crit = 0.265% DPS boost so far, without proc's factored in.

We can do the spell crit portion as well. 68% Spell Crit means 68% of a 33% increase, or a 22.4% overall increase from that amount of spell crit. Base Spells = 19% - 19% / 122.4%, or 15.5% Base, and 3.5% from 68% Spell Crit. Thus, 1% spell crit = 0.05% Boost, or 20% Spell Crit = 1% DPS Boost.

CA/Spell Damage to DPS boost is difficult to calculate, so I'll try to explain the method I use, while also doing an example with Cleave Faith. To determine your Spell/Combat art damage bonus, the first step is to determine what portion of your total damage the spell/combat comprises. I haven't seen a raiding paladin's parse in a while, but let's say it does 4% of your zonewide (80 dps out of a 2k parse).
The next step is determine the DPS boost from CA/Spell Damage for that given spell. Since each point of CA/Spell Damage increases the damage 1 point per point, it's a 100% increase per point until the cap.
So, you need to first figure out what the cap of that spell is (and whether you've hit it or not.) If you sit exactly at the cap, you get 100% bonus. If you do pass the cap, then you just have to calculate the additional damage as 0%. If you're not past the cap, then you only realize the percentage of the bonus that you wear. I'm going to ignore crits (which could raise the average bonus that CA damage provides but doesn't affect the cap).
I.e., Cleave Faith m1's combat art damage cap at is 206-344 at 761 str (an average + CA damage of 275). If you had under 275 +CA damage, you'd gain 100% of that damage on average. If you had, 400 +CA damage, then you'd only get 69% average benefit from that combat art damage. If you had 140 +CA Damage, then you'd gain 51% average benefit. The math: Actual Bonus if over cap = (Cap/Total CA Damage); Actual Bonus if under cap = (Total CA Damage/Cap).
Next, you need to normalize the casting time to seconds by dividing the additional damage by Cast Time + Recovery Time. Since all single target combat arts are 0.5s, or 0.4545s with 10% casting speed, and recovery for all spells and combat arts are 0.5s, or 0.4545s with 10% recovery speed, you divide the bonus by 0.91 for all those combat arts. In math terms: Actual Bonus per Second = 100% / (Cast Time + Recovery Time). Thus you gain about 110% damage bonus per second for each point of combat art damage under 275 CA for Cleave Faith. If you were over, say 400, then you'd gain 69% of the 110% bonus, or 76% damage bonus per second. If you were at 140, then you'd get 51% of the bonus, or 56% damage bonus per second.

So mathematically, this would be the formula using all those numbers:
DPS Boost of CA/Spell = % of Total Damage * Actual Bonus per Second. For Cleave Faith, if you had 275 CA Damage, then: DPS Boost for 275 CA Damage = 4% * 110% = 4.4% DPS Boost. Since you have 140, it'd be: DPS Boost for 140 CA Damage = 4% * 56% = 2.2% DPS Boost from 140 CA. Basically, a 62.5 CA Damage to 1% Boost ratio. Of course, you have to factor in all the rest of your spells before you can say for certain what amount of CA Damage boosts your overall dps, since faster spells get a larger boost, slower spells get a smaller boost, and spells with higher reuse are a bigger part of your damage thus affect the average boost more. (Reuse is factored in already by determining what portion of your overall damage the CA is). Then you have to do it separately for Spells as well.

The proc portion is pretty easy, since only crits affect it. Procs are mostly at a ratio of 3:5 to 4:5, so I'll just round and guess about 33% damage increase again. Assuming you mean melee procs (your self buffs) and not outside procs, than we can use the 50% melee crit number once again. I'll skip the math, since it's the same as above: 18% base damage, and 3% from 50% Melee Crit. Thus, 0.06% increase from melee crits due to procs, which means 1% Melee Crit = 0.325% DPS Boost. Thus the final number we come for the value of Melee Crit is 3% Melee Crit = 1% DPS boost.

In sum, we learned this from all this mess:

About 3.6% DA = about 3% Melee Crit = about 20% Spell Crit = probably about 75 Combat Art Damage? until the cap = probably about 110 Spell Damage? until the cap = 1% Boost in your DPS parse.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:08 AM  
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Default Re: Paladin DPS break down

Revel your sig scares me. Is that the evil blood eye squirting lizard????
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