Guardians and aviodance - Page 7

boli · 05-03-2008, 08:08 AM

Fighter avoidance (in order of parry/riposte > defence > block)
Templar avoidance (parry > block)
The other tank's avoidance (in order of parry/riposte > defence > block)

If it fails all these checks it counts as a HIT so stoneskin will proc if up or have a chance to proc if not.

Trust me parry is counted before block... go and pull a low grey herioc with a tower up and see how many parrys you get in the avoidance bar Vs block. and then do the same vs green.

Actually just done that myself one of the grey guards in qeynos. (lvl 50 herioc) and you'll see parry and riposte outnumber block by far... in fact there isn't a single block there and I've shown my persona window to show how my avoid is split down.

LINK

Pinski · 05-03-2008, 06:09 PM

Who cares what is done first, it doesn't matter. They are all equal.

If you have 20% Parry and 10% Block, it doesn't matter what order it is done. You will have 20% Parries and 8% blocks(because it's 80% get through parry, 90% of 80% get through block), if you do parry first block 2nd. If you do block first parry second you will have 10% block, and 18% parry(90% get through block, 80% of 90% get through parry), thus giving you 28% avoidance. Good news, you have 28% avoidance both ways, thus it doesn't matter which way it's done, so stfu about it mattering what is done first, it doesn't matter!

jfantasy · 05-03-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anjin

We haven't taken down Druushk yet (we only go to VP maz twice a week

), but this is the avoidance report on our best pull:

Templar: 18.75%
Dirge SS: 4.17%
Monk: 23.19%
MT: 30.44%

The MT block was 21.74%. You may start getting the gist of these reports....My avoidance on the MT is greater than the MT blocks even though I only have a chance of avoiding, on average, 54% of attacks.

I can't wait to get 2 x 3% parry adorns (I only now have a writ item worth adorning), 8% from set items and 15% from the dogwood staff ;-)

the order does matter for this.

boli · 05-03-2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Who cares what is done first, it doesn't matter. They are all equal.

If you have 20% Parry and 10% Block, it doesn't matter what order it is done. You will have 20% Parries and 8% blocks(because it's 80% get through parry, 90% of 80% get through block), if you do parry first block 2nd. If you do block first parry second you will have 10% block, and 18% parry(90% get through block, 80% of 90% get through parry), thus giving you 28% avoidance. Good news, you have 28% avoidance both ways, thus it doesn't matter which way it's done, so stfu about it mattering what is done first, it doesn't matter!

You forgot to add what is perhaps the biggest modifier.... that of debuffs, For when it comes down to the wire.... uncontested avoidance (block) will defend more against undebuffed epics than anything else... yet debuff the mob to within its absolute limits and the tank with the highest avoidance (generally brawler) will come into play as parry starts to become increasingly more and more effective.

So you are left with the situation of more uncontesated avoidance or less uncontesated avoidance but more overall avoidance. If you had both I would have paly full defensive stance put their avoid on the guard for the PULL.. and swap out to monk afterwards.

or alternativly just have the second guard put their avoid on the MT and make sure both have towers our for the pull.

Job's done.

Pinski · 05-03-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boli

You forgot to add what is perhaps the biggest modifier.... that of debuffs, For when it comes down to the wire.... uncontested avoidance (block) will defend more against undebuffed epics than anything else... yet debuff the mob to within its absolute limits and the tank with the highest avoidance (generally brawler) will come into play as parry starts to become increasingly more and more effective.

So you are left with the situation of more uncontesated avoidance or less uncontesated avoidance but more overall avoidance. If you had both I would have paly full defensive stance put their avoid on the guard for the PULL.. and swap out to monk afterwards.

or alternativly just have the second guard put their avoid on the MT and make sure both have towers our for the pull.

Job's done.

Except, that wasn't the argument. We're not arguing about contested vs. uncontested avoidance. You were arguing say that 1%(that's %, as in like an adornment) parry is worth more than 1% block, which is completely untrue.

Anjin · 05-03-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfantasy

the order does matter for this.

Nope, the only order that really mattered for that was the order of avoidance checks - i.e. MT, Templar, Dirge & fighter avoidance giver.

Anjin · 05-03-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boli

You forgot to add what is perhaps the biggest modifier.... that of debuffs, For when it comes down to the wire.... uncontested avoidance (block) will defend more against undebuffed epics than anything else... yet debuff the mob to within its absolute limits and the tank with the highest avoidance (generally brawler) will come into play as parry starts to become increasingly more and more effective.

So you are left with the situation of more uncontesated avoidance or less uncontesated avoidance but more overall avoidance. If you had both I would have paly full defensive stance put their avoid on the guard for the PULL.. and swap out to monk afterwards.

or alternativly just have the second guard put their avoid on the MT and make sure both have towers our for the pull.

Job's done.

Strange that you chose to ignore a monk providing 12 secs of Tsunami on pull. Fair enough a warrior with the AGI endline can do similar, but the warrior can do jack shit apart from autoattack during that period.

Tsunami > anything ANY other fighter can provide for an avoidance check (assuming ToS only works if the target is the actual ToS user). Either get used to it or ignore it, it's up to you.

Anjin · 05-03-2008, 10:07 PM

Also, for brawlers, parry is the least of their avoidance skills. Deflection is the brawler equivelant to Block. Although parry does come 1st in the avoidance check cycle, without Tsunami, the avoidance reports will show more deflection than anything else (it's uncontested avoidance in def and mid stances). Parry & riposte will only show up heavily (assuming no uncontested parry adornments) when Tsunami is up.

jfantasy · 05-03-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anjin

The MT block was 21.74%. You may start getting the gist of these reports....My avoidance on the MT is greater than the MT blocks even though I only have a chance of avoiding, on average, 54% of attacks.

read your post...

Anjin · 05-03-2008, 10:59 PM

Which part isn't true? The important part is the order in which each players avoidance is checked, which has been the most recent topic of conversation. I was purely trying to highlight to some people that monk avoidance is a damned sight better than they think.

Fair enough given that the MT check is later on in the cycle, but it did highlight the amount of avoidance a monk gives.

I do wish you'd actually come out with a concrete arguement though. It seems that you (and other posters) can't accept that monks are better when the mob isn't debuffed (using tsunami) and after debuffing with the monk having higher contested avoidance. Even on the uncontested side without tsunami, monks aren't far off (and higher given the gear) paladins.

Then there's the added arguement of why a paladin should be there if they're not the OT. If they are the OT then they will have distance limitations given certain encounters and if they're not the OT they wouldn't be providing anything near as much to the raid as a monk.