Davngr

i duno.. if you make the raid a group of 24 instead of 4 groups of 6 it would imo open up for way more balance, since you wont be limited to 4 sets of 6 slots.

Lunator

This is probably a retarded idea but whatever, maybe it will spark a 'good' idea.

Give summoners a 'utility' pet .......... 1 utility pet = 1 chanter/bard combo group buffs

A pet that gives group buffs --> +base dmg buff, some haste, DA, cast and reuse speed, hate reduction, and pwr regen. The utility pet would be about equal to a Chanter and Bard combined. Probably have the Conj utility pet more like a Troub/Illus combo, and Necro pet would be more like Coercer/Dirge. Instead of IA/BC single buffs, the utility pet would have group wide DA buff, slightly lower that BC (for balance) but group wide.

So if this was one of your usual group:

Troub
Illus
Wiz
Warlock
Ranger
Inquiz

you would have the option to replace the Troub/Illus with the Conj.

Conj (utility)
Wiz
Warlock
Necro (dps)
Ranger
Inquiz

The upside is that you can get another T1 dps'er into the raid. The downside is that you would loose the troub PotM. Another upside is that you could replace the Ranger with another Wiz and get double Frigid Gift going.

Or you could make straight melee group...

Necro (utility)
Ranger
Assasin
Brigand
Monk
Inquiz

You would still want AT LEAST 1 Troub and 1 Dirge for PotM and Cob. And still a Coercer in the MT group and 1 or 2 uber Illys for sure

That would give the Raid Leader more flexibility for making up the raid and would mitigate the chanter/bard stacking situation.

(oh and probly the summoner utility pet buffs wouldn't stack with Chanters or Bards)

Davngr

summoner with not pet will loose at least 30% of their dmg and even more if it's a conj. summoners all ready have utility pets conj has a heal pet and necro has a debuff pet, it don't work and unless there is an actual change to buffs or a solid utility given to summoners no one is going to abandon their current set up.

Deule

You really need to think outside of the box. I am sure you can agree with changing the abilities of bards and chanters into all raid wide that there will definitely be 2 bards and 2 chanters on a raid whenever possible, but probably not more than that. You know brigs will always be wanted for dispatch. So you make this change and yes it would seem like bringing more T1 dps would be the go to for filling the spots opened up. However, that is where SOE with their class revamps they want to do adds in utility to the classes lacking it. Summoners, some type of utility they could bring to raid worth having them. Personally I would like it involve their pets...like having mage pet up buffs mages in the raid, fighter pet buffs fighters, and scout pet buffs scouts. Could be as simple as mage pet buffs surrounding mages with 10% base spell damage. This would allow them to choose what pet to bring up depending on the fights are the make-up of the raid.

Swashies. Give them that ability they are lacking like Dispatch. Maybe some type of debuff that made it so Crits hit harder.

Brawlers. This is a tough one and always has been for SOE. Monks in RoK had a shoe in spot in raids because their raid buff was very good. Personally I think a slight adjustment to their raid buffs to make them more desirable effects on raids. A slight boost to DPS. And than taking a look at what is supposed to make them an "oh, shit" tank and building on them.

Again this is where SOE should start with the class revamps. Fix utility classes and things will look much better. After that the next step would be in fixing it so that raids have to bring 8-9 healers on a raid. That is a much trickier situation.

Backpayne

Ya know... after reading this shit heap of a whinefest about how to "balance" things and the arguements on both sides of the fence, I have to laugh at all of it.

Shit is how it is, deal with it. If you don't like how the raid aspect of the game is setup atm, cancel your account and gtfo. The game won't change because someone got their fucking pussy hurt when they got cut from a raid for playing a useless class.

Fact remains that shit changes constantly in this game. Whatever class is the flavor of the month for an expansion will probably/definitely change on the release of the next one. Either wait your turn to be OP'd or quit playin.

Now go wipe your fuckin pussy, change your kotex, and take a motrin.

Davngr

i don't see anyone crying about anything, go to the official forums if you want to see crying.

the problem is that some of this classes take up to 10 spots in the raid and they aren't OP for the most part and even if they nerf illys down to troub lvl's there will STILL be 3 in the raid.

so discuss your points or make better points but trust me this isin't about flavor of the month. this is a problem that needs to be delt with or pretty soon everyone will be playing bards/illys.

Backpayne

Not to take what ya said out of context here but....

I would love to see everyone playing bards/illys in a raid. Which one would tank? Who is going to heal?

Regardless, this was originally a post about maximizing raid dps for TSO raids before people started their bitchfest. If you want to start a rant, try the carebear corner and make your own thread.

Davngr

im not looking to make my own tread im just pointing out the reality of raiding today. you want good raid dps get 8-10 bards and chanters, im not bitchting about it i just don't want to raid my troub or chanter and think they should be made more efficient.

only people that i can see against this are the weak players that only hold the raid spot do to class.. is that you?

Backpayne

I play a brigand not a bard or enchanter.

Some players have been playing the classes in question since before they were in such a high demand. How is it efficient to nerf a class so that other classes can raid?

Personally, I have no qualms with the situation as it stands. Coercers bring power regen, dps mod, and a hate gain/transfer to the group. Illusionist brings a dehate spell proc, regen, IA, and haste. So why complain that they can dps decently AND bring that utility? I would rather see a utility class WITH decent dps than a utility class thats nothing more than a buff whore.

Lets look at it from a slightly different perspective other than I only want to have X amount of Y class in the raid. If those classes didn't do decent dps but helped increase dps, where would you draw the line for their usefullness?

For example: a dirge that parses 300-500 dps because they bring utility that might increase a groups overall dps by say 25% versus a T1 dps class that can bring more dps by being in that spot instead of the bringing the dirge.

Where do you draw the line there? The same goes for the rest of the utility classes. The idea that SOE has for bringing "balance" to a class is a substantial nerf. If people piss and moan that illusionists are OP'd because they can dps as high as a swash or brig and still have utility, I would ask them one very simple question. What does a swash or brig bring to the raid? They bring debuffs with their dps. So does that mean their class is OP'd because they bring more than ONE thing to the raid?

Before you go preachin about holding a spot in the raid force due to class, I'll say this... Yes, I'm the only brig in our raid force. Do I hold that spot because of my class? I could opt for any other class except a tank and have a spot in the raid force. Hard to be a prick of a raid leader and cut your own toon now isn't it.

Davngr

here's the thing, im not talking about nerfing illys or any other utililty class in any way, shape or form. if anything i feel troubs should get a lil dps boost to catch up to dirges.

what i think should happen is that utillity classes should recive a boost to their utillity so that you don't need 8 to 10 to buff your raid instead you will only need 4 to 5.
illy dps is fine right whre it is, if you slip or sux the illy will out parse you and that's ok with me.