dual bard groups, still worth it? - Page 3

the_mo · 10-31-2009, 11:06 AM

sadly OT groups with 1 healer just dont work anymore... welcome to tso :P

Hoss · 10-31-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_mo

Our healers suck and can't keep an OT up by themselves

Sounds like a personal problem, you need to see the chaplain.

Davngr · 10-31-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_mo

err.. no you dont. you set up groups to achieve the maximum of raid dps possible, which is achieved by support-stacking (which benefit each other very very very much) and not by putting together a raid with 2 groups that are built around one dps char. you want everyone, especially the bards and enchanters, to put out high dps as well, thats why troub+dirge+illy is the perfect basis for a dps group and it really doesnt matter too much which class will be the DPS class that fills the one spot, that such a group actually has for a dps class.

ok.. let me say this yet again.. the best dps for one person in the group was only for fun... it's what started the arguement.

THIS THREAD is about double bard groups being a waste now with procs not being affected by crits,dmg mods and scouts for the most part being benefited by melee crit/base mods.

is that clear?

you're crazy if you think skill/gear being equal a dirge would out parse a summoner in the troub group. sure the dirge would bring the sk,healer,troub some melee dmg but it would not amount to the dmg a good summoner could bring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakkota

heh, actually i always argue the best group setup is troub, dirge, illy, coerc, templar, dakkota. Said asshat is pretty damn close to being on point imo. And yes I have great reason for every class in there, even the coerc!

dakkota.. a dirge does nothing for you man, how much is your melee dps? how much do you melee on mobs with detrimental debuffs? please explain im just not seeing what the dirge does for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harowen

Troubadour
Dirge
Illusionist
Coercer
Shadowknight
Inquisitor

Both the enchanters are strength line spec'd for melee goodness. On non-joust fights they'll be able to hit in melee just fine and receive the benefit of cob and other assorted melee buffs.

A sampling of what the group is receiving includes:
25% cast haste
10% reuse haste
2x peace of mind
coercive healing
time compression on coercer
upbeat tempo on illusionist
illusory arm on dirge
battle cry on shadowknight
dps mod for sk, troub, dirge (at the very least)
haste mod for everybody

...and a tank that can keep up with the dps from the enchanters and maintain aggro.

This group setup is loads of fun for instancing with, and god damn good dps on a raid in any scenario that only requires 1 healer for said group. I've actually gotten to enjoy this group, and it's pretty awesome.

Apparently I agree with "some asshat". :D

yes.. well these groups are what broke raiding since you basicly end up filling the whole fucking raid with utillity, healrs and tanks all the classes are fucked..

but don't be so sure these groups can put out more dps then a starndard dps groups.. with the proc nerf those enchanter/bards lost a crap load of dps (hello? 30 - 40% gvb parses) and in raid that sk would be tanking EVERY MOB good luck staying alive dude!

i don't know why you insist on bringing up herroic when this is a discussion about raids and how double bards no longer benefit anyone but the bards and crusaders.. you are an asshat!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chefren

It does; 2*dirge and 2* troub gives you a 4* stack of Allegro and Fortissimo.

i will have to check on this man.. i was pretty sure that only fortissimo stacked. will get back to you sir.. either way 8% casting with every one close to dimishing returns just don't amount to much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seomon

My preferable group:
Troubadour (Gives UT to Illusionist)
Dirge (Gives BC to Troub)
Illusionist (Gives TC to Sorc and IA to Dirge)
Wizard/Warlock (pref Wizard for Gift)
Paladin (Amends DPS class for straight win)
Mystic/Inquisitor

Everyone in this group is close to max dps potential, can tank pretty much anything an OT will be needed for (there are exceptions of course), and will be straight win. Of course I'm a Pally, but the Pally can we switched to SK for almost the same amount of win.

that paladin only eating buffs and won't be able to tank anything with only one healer. the dirge is a waste if you're going to go with a caster set up.. invite another sorc/summoner that don't suck and dps will go up.

Aquemeni · 10-31-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davngr

my dps group for any dps class would be as follows:

sk,bard,cleric,mystic,chanter + dps class
i know that i few tweaks would be done here and there maybe dropping a healer and adding a chanter but over all this is imo the best set up.

said asshat decided to argue that the best dps group is:
troub,dirge,illy,coer,inquis + dps class

Exhibit A:

[Fri Oct 30 03

18 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "sk/chanter/bard/mystic/cleric + any dps class is the best group right now"
[Fri Oct 30 03

28 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "it is/"
[Fri Oct 30 03

31 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

38 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "for dps ... yes"
[Fri Oct 30 03

40 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "for who?"
[Fri Oct 30 0347 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "any dps class"
[Fri Oct 30 03

50 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "nope"
[Fri Oct 30 03

03 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "what class would not benefit from that"
[Fri Oct 30 03

16 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "Im not saying they wouldnt benefit"
[Fri Oct 30 03

17 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "and what do you think would be beter?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

21 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "but YOU said its the best group"
[Fri Oct 30 03

24 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "which it isnt."
[Fri Oct 30 03

27 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "i did"
[Fri Oct 30 03

38 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "so.. what would be better"
[Fri Oct 30 03

44 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "double bard, double chanter"
[Fri Oct 30 03

52 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "ok"
[Fri Oct 30 03

53 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "and ANY healer."
[Fri Oct 30 03

01 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "double chanter would be ok"
[Fri Oct 30 03

28 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "but double bard would not really benefit any dps class"
[Fri Oct 30 03

30 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "sigh... why do I bother with you"
[Fri Oct 30 03

36 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "since the changes"
[Fri Oct 30 03

38 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "yes, it would"
[Fri Oct 30 03

45 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "actually."
[Fri Oct 30 03

04 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "how does a troub benefit a melee class"
[Fri Oct 30 03

09 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "seriously?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

17 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "thats like a serious question?"

[Fri Oct 30 03

00 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "yes.. but i said that group would be best for A dps class.. meaning my dps class ;p not any other classes in the group"
[Fri Oct 30 03

33 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "if only you said that"

Exhibit B:
[Fri Oct 30 03:30:28 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "no.. im saying double bard groups are a waste for a dps class"
[Fri Oct 30 03:30:47 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "the only classes that benefit from it are bards and crusaders"
[Fri Oct 30 03

09 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "no"
[Fri Oct 30 03

13 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "they benefit from it the MOST"
[Fri Oct 30 03

16 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "and no one else.."
[Fri Oct 30 03

19 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "but they are not the only classes that benefit from it"
[Fri Oct 30 03

21 2009] \aPC -1 Anonymous:Anonymous\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "ffs"

Exhibit C:
[Fri Oct 30 03

12 2009] You tell Level_70-79 (2), "so 2 bards, 2 chanters a SK and ANY healer = melee group?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

20 2009] You tell Level_70-79 (2), "I mean...that was the setup we were talking about right?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

02 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "nah.. my set up was a dream set up for any dps class"

[Fri Oct 30 03

29 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "SK,bard,chanter,mystic,cleric + any dps class"
[Fri Oct 30 03

46 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "is what i feel is the best group for amy dps class"
[Fri Oct 30 03

55 2009] You tell Level_70-79 (2), "2 healers for an ideal dps group?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

00 2009] You tell Level_70-79 (2), "and an SK huh?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

07 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "well ideal for one person"
[Fri Oct 30 03

14 2009] You tell Level_70-79 (2), "for WHO?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

19 2009] You tell Level_70-79 (2), "the SK? to tank?"
[Fri Oct 30 03

32 2009] \aPC -1 Davngr:Davngr\/a tells Level_70-79 (2), "any dps clas you stick in there sir"

So apparently....this thread was started because you insisted that a tank group is the "dream DPS group".

Please continue digging...

Once again Dav, you're good at wasting peoples' time.

Aquemeni · 10-31-2009, 01:10 PM

And yea.....not sure how, but random smileys apparently invaded my logs.

Edit: Figured it out. It's smiley o' clock

Dibbis · 10-31-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davngr

THIS THREAD is about double bard groups being a waste now with procs not being affected by crits,dmg mods and scouts for the most part being benefited by melee crit/base mods.

is that clear?

no its wrong. double bard groups are still amazing. like i already said, in a good group setup everyone is doing max or close, not 1-2 classes. your building your group ideas around 1-2 people and you missing alot of high dps in the middle. a dirge can put out huge numbers, i never had an issue doing it without a double bard group, when i had one i was way up on the parse.

not sure if you have paid attention to parses this xpac, but utility can put up huge numbers, even the healers too. no a dirge doesnt give the wizzy as much as a troub, but the dirge fills in buffs for the troub, tank, healer, and melee dps for mages too. stoneskin helps survivability, etc

alot more comes into group setups and group parses than you think aparently.

Aquemeni · 10-31-2009, 01:25 PM

btw Dibbis your sig is fuckin awesome dude, me likey

Darktizzle · 10-31-2009, 01:26 PM

I totally just stumbled on this.

Pretty funny.
Not getting the answer you thought you would eh dav?

Probably because like weve all said all along. You are an idiot.

Dibbis · 10-31-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquemeni

btw Dibbis your sig is fuckin awesome dude, me likey

thx :P

dakkota · 10-31-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davngr

o

dakkota.. a dirge does nothing for you man, how much is your melee dps? how much do you melee on mobs with detrimental debuffs? please explain im just not seeing what the dirge does for you.

I was talking about heroic grouping for my given setup..I thought thats what this was! I also am assuming I am tanking in the group i described. If it was a raid group tho I would replace the coercer with a diff class and hands down use a mystic/inq prolly. For me personally though, straight up, the dirge i always liked cause of another stoneskin proc, the cast speed boost and the proc increaser luck of the dirge. They also have a debuff my for damage type im pretty sure. And even in a raid setup I like it, not neccesarily for me 100% but the overall mixture of the groups ive described yields really good results for every person. And I'll also always love to take dirges when troubs arn't present, ever since that 10% crit bonus AA buff i'm plenty happy with any bard.

Yah raid setup dirge isn't doing too much extra for me, but its nifty and nice and a great benefit to the entire group for sure. Group-heroic setup, the dirge is leet as hell for me to bring along. Moar buffs!