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  1. #1
    I'm not a Bug! Sinaya's Avatar
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    Default Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    X-Posted from Official SoE forum:

    Hi all,


    I'd like to request that Wardens be looked at closely for their raiding usefulness. I have been raiding with some pretty active guilds on my Warden for the past year, and have noticed a lot of things about Warden buffs / abilities that could probably be improved upon.


    First and foremost, I'd like to say that Wardens are definitely amazing at healing heroic instances. Wardens can also excel at soloing content, and are easily one of the more fun and easy classes to play in my opinion. Their self mitigation bonuses granted by Warden of the Forest and melee combat art conversions granted by AA even make them viable tanks for some of the easier content. Quick-casts and heal-over-time mechanics, combined with two group-cures, an aoe-blocker (Tortoise Shell), and the versatility of being able to serve as ranged or melee dps depending on how AA is spent provides a lot of flexibility for different group and raid situations. Also, we can summon wolves, and can provide shade for players if the weather gets too hot.


    However, in my opinion our class has limited capabilities when it comes to supporting end-game raid encounters, especially when compared directly to other classes with similar abilities.


    Cyclone (Sentinel's Fate Warden Tree endline) - This 10-second stoneskin ability on any group member looks great on paper, but its usefulness is limited. Since this spell can only be used on someone in your group, it does not come into play very often unless you're stationed in the group with the raid's main tank. The cooldown / reuse timer is in my opinion appropriately long, but I think that this spell could be made much more potent if it were able to be cast on any raid member, rather than being limited to the group. Compared to the Cleric's Divine Guidance, their essentially unlimited group reactive, this spell's one-member limit causes it to pale greatly in comparison. Divine Guidance not only applies to the entire group, but refreshes more quickly. When Compared to the Fury Endline, Natural Cleanse, it seems to me that a raid-wide repeated cure is much more useful to the raid on whole than a 10-second, 1-person group-specific stoneskin.


    Tunare's Grace (Sentinel's Fate Druid Tree endline) - I love this spell. Having a second group cure makes druids desirable in many situations, especially due to this expansions cure trauma, cure elemental, cure noxious and cure arcane spells consolidation. The short-term damage buff this spell applies to the group when it cures something is also a very nice added bonus. Even with the recent nerf to this spell in Battlegrounds, (Extended reuse and one-spell per detrimental type limit) it's still very potent. Yet anyone who plays a healer in raids probably knows that Inquisitors still have the most solid cure solution. Compared to Cleansing of the Soul, this spell isn't that impressive. Cleansing not only applies an extra heal, but also has a superior cast time, reuse time, and can be cast while moving. Cleansing was the only group cure that did not receive a Battlegrounds nerf, but its ability to be used while popped up or knocked back, combined with the Cleric's Steadfast ability that prevents them from being interrupted while standing still is what makes it much more reliable than combining a Druid's Serenity with Tunare's Grace. I would suggest making this spell more like Cleansing of the Soul, by either giving it a faster cast time, or making it able to be cast while moving.


    Tortoise Shell (Druid Tree - Agility endline) - This spell has seen a lot of improvements in the past expansion. The reuse time was reduced, the radius was increased, it no longer requires a buckler, and it no longer stifles / stuns the user. In my opinion, this spell is most useful when applied in a group of scouts, since as long as you move with the rest of your party, you can potentially protect yourself and up to five other people from otherwise devastating close-range aoe attacks while 'jousting in' to do some extra damage. At the same time though, this spell's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness. The user has to move with the party, so in order to protect everyone, the druid has to be right there in the thick of things too. This is a risky maneuver, especially since this spell does NOT provide protection from enemy area of effect auto attacks. Although the Cleric's Holy Shield can only be applied to one person, the Cleric does not have to move in with the person they are trying to protect. Tortoise Shell can be used while hanging back to protect characters doing ranged damage to the enemy, but in most cases if you are staying back you're taking less damage from the aoe-spell anyway. Still, I think this spell is easily one of the Druid's best abilities, but its biggest issues is the points one has to essentially waste to get it. The animal-specific mez / charm one is required to sink points into to get this spell aren't very useful except for pretending to be a B34st L0rd.

    Instinct (Warden Spell - Can be Modified with a Red Slot Adornment) - Easily our best offensive buff, Instinct also got some love this expansion. The additional damage over time is amazing, and the class-based threat modifier that can be provided by Warden-Line AA is amazing for melee classes. The Focus: Instinct Red Adornment also gives extra Double Attack and Accuracy, making this buff one of the best melee / ranged buffs available for scouts, tanks and priests. However, it can only be cast on one person in the group, and while this doesn't use up a concentration slot, its one-person limit makes it extremely circumscribed, especially since that person has to be in your group as well. Another player in my guild has suggested that this buff could be made much more useful if it applied to the entire group, the trade-off being that perhaps then it would require a concentration slot. Most of the time, I find that scouts are usually already capped on their Double / Multi-Attack, so the extra 7% Multi-Attack provided by the Red Adornment is usually moot. This spell also provides almost nothing for mages, who with some exceptions (Enchanters) rarely utilize combat arts or auto attack damage. Making this spell group-wide would at least give Wardens some sort of group-wide offensive usefulness, since currently our group-buffs are pretty much entirely defensive, and usually situational. Compared to Inquisitors' Fanaticism, and Tenacity, the Cleric's Divine Recovery, the Mystic's Stampede of the Herd and Bolster, and the Fury AA Hunter's Call potency boost, Wardens don't really have anything to compete.


    Hierophantic Genesis (Warden Spell) - Another spell that got a little love this expansion, this spell can be used to transfer power to another group member, if 5 AA points are spent on it. Without sinking in some Alternate Advancement points, the power cost of this spell is usually too great for it to be useful, even with a Warden's amazing self-power regenerative abilities. Although the Mystic's Spirit Tap now has a longer reuse, it is a much viable power recovery method than Hierophantic Genesis' single-target sustained health / power boost.


    Ward of the Untamed (Warden Spell - Can be modified with a Red Adornment) - An amazing ward, comparable to the Templar's Shield of Faith and the Mystic's Prophetic Ward, this spell is still only useful in certain fights since it only blocks elemental damage. Luckily, at least one encounter in every raid zone has at least one elemental-based attack, (Waansu, Mosaasus, Haephus, Saalax, Penda Parmare, etc.) but I still think it would be nice if all three of these wards also gave some other kind of defensive beneficial effect so they could be useful in other situations.


    General Heal Mechanic - Most healers who study Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) parses know that wards come before reactives, which come before heal over time ticks. This expansion's encounters have applied some interesting inflictions that are thrown at the raid that do make Heal over Time spells more useful, (the one-two punch of raid spells like Piercing Pestilence, for example). Raiding gear (and some instance gear) has also give druids a lot of ward-proc items, which help out a lot with spike damage and things like that, but so has every other similarly-geared healer. Sylvan Bloom may have gotten Skin Like Wood added to it for an extra little ward proc, but the majority of the time my combined Ancient Invigoration, Runic Deflection, Runic Absorption, Sacred Territory, Immaculate Perception and Rune Meld procs make up over a third of my healing. Celestial Restoration (the heal over time proc) and Overloaded Heal hardly even compare. Skin Like Wood, while a nice new addition, doesn't have nearly the impact on healing that having a single ward-proc item does, and ward procs are available to all healing classes.

    ---

    Basically, I'd like to see Wardens get some tools to make them more useful in a raid setting. As it stands right now, the end-game encounters really only give Wardens a spot as a tertiary healer in the main tank group, a support healer in a scout group, or no spot at all. Since our best damage seems to come from melee-type fighting due to our AA buffs, (Glacial Assault, Force of Nature, Animal Instinct, and so on) we work best in a group of scouts since they are probably also set up to get melee buffs as well. Yet a scout group will in most cases pick an Inquisitor over a Warden due to the Haste, dps modifier, and health buffs Inquisitors can give, while still providing the second group cure that Wardens could. Probably the only viable things we provide a group that other healers don't have something comparable to or better than are Tunare's Watch, the group Death Intervention and Tortoise Shell, which Furies can also have. I've read a lot of talk about Wardens being grossly overpowered, but we lack the stuns, stifles, knock-backs, interrupts fears and mezzes that can make other healers even more deadly, in addition to the comparisons posted above.

    One other random note... I dearly miss having Haste on Priest gear. It's frustrating having to equip Brawler gloves or Scout jewelry just to get a little haste love!

    Any feedback or tips would be greatly appreciated!

    Edit: Yes, I realize that Wardens are supposed to be the more defensive of the two druid types. We are also the more melee-oriented of the two druids, though. I'd be thrilled to see more useful scout / tank oriented offensive buffs for the group!
    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion View Post
    Sinaya, who will be returning to fill the emo whiny bitch role!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    Change HoTs to something thats not a huge waste of mana and id be happy on my Fury.

    Tunares Grace of fucking OP with it maxed, and it also adds 3 5-10k procs when used to cure detrimentals (depending on the toons bonus/pot)

  3. #3
    Axeman
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    Seeing instinct being compared to bolster or stampede is just funny to me since both of those buffs, unlike instinct, are temporary spells. Not saying you don't have a point in your argument though.

    Am I misreading that or are you asking for offensive buffs for the "defensive" druid class?
    :132:

  4. #4
    100% Anti-Dev
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    dude your on drugs, wardens rock.

    also Cleansing of the soul DID get nerfed in BG's.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  5. #5
    Queen of the pink Rosvita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    I feedback similar ideas all the time.

    Wardens in raids are very under powered, we have 1 offensive buff that is single target only all other healers have a groupwide offensive buff. This is why inquisitors and mystics are choosen for the scout group over wardens.

    Another issue you missed is the lack of debuffs for both druid classes, we have more time to cast them than cleric and shamans yet we only have 1 useful debuff.

    Wardens are amazingly fun to play however in raids we just aren't that desirable, I often end up playing a alt instead of my warden.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    Ask for an easy button while you're at it.

    Rosvita, you just don't get chose because you suck. Get back in the kitchen. :58:

  7. #7
    I'm not a Bug! Sinaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    I missed the thing about Cleansing of the Soul because they kept putting it in the Templar notes rather than the Inquisitor changes. My mistake.

    As I said, Wardens are amazing at heroic and solo content. And yes, we are a defensive class, but not nearly as good as a Mystic or Templar when it comes to pure defense.

    I'm not necessarily asking for an offensive overhaul, but would like *something* unique to make us more desirable for end-game raiding. Making Instinct group-wide would not affect solo play, and would greatly improve a Warden's usefulness for raids. (It might be a little overpowered for heroic instances though.) The thing about Instinct is that it has virtually no benefit for the majority of mages, while Fury buffs improve on both melee AND casters, although there is a definite preference towards caster buffs.

    The class simply has limits for end-game raiding as it stands now. Pretty much every other healer class is preferable to fill the last couple raid slots when boiled down to heal mechanics, health / resist buffs, and utility value.

    Boiled down, the issue I'm seeing is that most end-game raiding guilds are running with (in most cases) 3+ clerics, 3+ shamans, and MAYBE one or two druids. To me, that's an obvious imbalance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion View Post
    Sinaya, who will be returning to fill the emo whiny bitch role!

  8. #8
    What's a heal?!? Nikkibear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    Ok wow.. where to start?!... Maybe, dude you are on drugs! Lets see....

    Cyclone - Ok, I will agree with you here. This ability tho on paper and the look of it seems amazing, it really is an under utilized ability. I do agree that either reducing the reuse of this significantly, or making it "raid friend" not "group friend" would fix this ability alot. As it stands Infuriating Thorns makes this spell pale in comparison. Tho one saving grace this ability has is, it is the ONLY stone skin in game that is a complete and utter stone skin for 10 secs. All other stone skins (ie Divine Aura, etc) are all 50% health and under, or have trigger limitations.

    Tunare's Grace - Ok this ability is just plain fucking amazing. There is nothing bad I can think of with this ability. Ok so sure you can't cast it while moving like inquisitors can cast Cleansing of the Soul. But now lets actually look at these two abilities a little closer.... First of all, Tunare's Grace a group cure with a damage proc for anyone in your group. Sure it has a cast time and can't be cast while moving. But if you have ever actually looked at parse numbers on this ability its beast. It can easily pull 2-3k on the parse alone. Now for Cleansing of the Soul, sure Inq's can cast this while moving and it has a heal attached to it. The heal isn't something to be relied on tho. Ok so we have one group cure that adds free damage for our group, or a group cure that adds a heal. Now you ask to remove the cast time on this ability, well what are you going to give Inq's in return? Since their's is there "epic ability". Give them our power regen? Personally I'll keep my dmg cure, power regen, and the cast time.

    Tortoise Shell - Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this. First of all to complain about this ability at all is ludicris. You are comparing Tortoise Shell with Holy Shield, why? They are two completely different abilities and personally I'd take TS over HS anyday. HS is only good for one member of your group where as TS is the entire group so your always protected no matter who you are trying to protect. Now a better comparison you could of made would be Tortoise Shell vs Blade Dance. And even there TS blows BD out of the water. First reason I say that TS is so amazing is any drd (fury or warden) is going to take the agil line ANYWAYS for wild regeneration. So add an extra 6 points in that line and get TS, oh noes! Bards who get BD don't take the str line at all as there is little to nothing of use to them other then BD in that line, so they need to spend 25 aa's vs our extra 6. Now BD is just a straight ae block with the absolute minimum reuse timer of 5mins. TS is not only an AE blocker, it also has in combat health regen (big whoop i know), and 100% block chance to group added to it (good for any tank), with a like 1.5min reuse on the spell. How is this bad?! From my personal knowledge TS is the best means of ae prevention in game and your complaining about this? Why?

    Instinct - Well as much as I agree that this spell would be amazing if it was a group buff, I personally think this spell is totally beast in its own right as it is. You failed to mention the accuracy that is also added to this buff with the red slot adorn, why? That is the key part of that addition. 10 accuracy is HUGE for any melee. Now for the base ability. Have you ever sat and actually parsed this ability? It can sit as the top dps of a scout. And if you put the aa into it, it can be the top deagro of a scout you put it on. If its on a tank again it can be the top agro producer as well. Personally I think this ability is beast in its own right and really shouldn't be complained about. If you are truely going to complain about it being useless in a mage group then your mage groups lack troubs and fail. But all in all, wardens really shouldn't be in the mage group. We are more destined for OT or scout groups by far.

    Hierophantic Genesis - First of all, you do NOT need to add aa to this ability to feed power to another player. All the aa does is reduce the power cost and increase the actual heal amount. And if you use this ability to "heal" then you fail. If you can't self regen the power cost of this ability without the aa's, then again you fail. Have you ever actually looked at how much power this ability feeds? It can over half fill up your group members power bar costing you next to nothing, since our power regen is so amazing. Again you are asking for another class's "epic ability". Sorry but I'd hate you if I had to change Nature's Restoration for Spirit Tap.

    Ward of the Untamed - Dude do you even read your abilities before you post? You asked for this ability to do more defensively then just the ward........ Read it! Not only does it have the ward... wait for it... it has a mitigation buff as well, and a decent mitigation buff.

    General Heal Mechanic - What are you even asking for here? Wards, reactives, what? Personally I love my hots. If you have issues solo healing raid content then its a personal problem. This xpac gave us the most ability to get wards and reactives then ever in the past, and this isn't enough for you? Seriously?

    I can admit that we have room for improvements. But the arguments you brought to the table are weak at best. You mention a few abilities, most of which do not need improvements and failed to mention some that could use a big improvement (like our stoopid tree). And to be completely honest, if you are having issues getting a full time raid spot, maybe its the raid set up. Wardens are now amazing for OT, and shouldn't have a problem getting that spot. One after thought... If you are complaining about not buffing mages, maybe you should realize that we dont buff mages. Just like dirges are for melee and troubs are for mages. Wardens buff melee and Furies buff mages. If you are focused on buffing mages, you should probably consider betraying. Just sayin.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosvita View Post
    Wardens in raids are very under powered, we have 1 offensive buff that is single target only all other healers have a groupwide offensive buff. This is why inquisitors and mystics are choosen for the scout group over wardens.
    Enlighten me please; what is the defiler groupwide offensive buff?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Warden Weaknesses in End-Game Encounters

    Quote Originally Posted by Juneau View Post
    Enlighten me please; what is the defiler groupwide offensive buff?
    5% groupwide critbonus on shroud of armor.

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