Ralazar

What I like about the ideas that he has proposed here is that it gives guilds a reason to have diversity in their raids. Ever know a person who played their toon REALLY well, but they just weren't a necessary class so there was no reason to put them in a raid rather than just stack multiple toons of the same class in the raid?

It's sooo nice to have several bards on a raid because their buffs are awesome, but when it becomes commonplace to have 3 or 4 bards in a raid, it makes you wonder (well, makes me wonder) why they even bothered putting some of the other classes in the game.

I always liked how there were 24 classes and 24 spots in a raid because before I started raiding I thought it would be cool to have as many of those classes represented in the raid as possible. I like diversity.

However, making it so that no raid ever really needs more than 3 fighters (even three fighter raids are an exception in most cases) means that the three fighter classes that are the 'flavor of that expansion' will get those spots. Next expansion, if SKs, monks, and bruisers are made to be extremely good tanks, all that will do is change which three fighters get into the raid.

As the OP mentioned, fighters should (IMO) be there to protect their fellow raiders and help control the battle. Instead of letting them do that job, the minimum number of fighters are put into a raid, then enough healers are added to make sure that people don't constantly die, and DPS + buffers are put in and fill up the rest of the raid.

I'm so tempted to continue ranting about how certain things should be more like they were in eq1 (enchanters being more able to help control fights by mezzing stuff, etc.). I just think the whole "keep your power under 30% so you can put out some good dps" thing is lame, but that's an issue for a different thread...

Widem

theres you problem right there...they fundamentally fucked up making a game with 24 classes with a 24 raidslot game...it is completely impossible to balance something like that when it comes down to raiding...if you want to raid dont play these classes plain and simple...there is no way you need 6 tanks in a 4 group raid. the real fix here is to make the classes warrior, crusader, brawler. thats not going to happen so they are coming up with this shit to fuck up the game to make 3 or 4 classes feel wanted in a raid setting.

this is not fixing the problem...if this stuff works out the way it is your just going to have some other class getting fucked out of whatever. there is always going to be a way to min/max and someone is always going to get fucked and here its just more apparent b/c they are trying to balance 24 of them and gave themselves no room to work. the REAL problem is to many classes.

gungo

Seriously now i gave you guys my idea of the ideal raid setup using these new ideas. I even amended some things based on feedback. So i want you guys to find out where the flaw is in my idea of allowing all 24 classes on raids. FInd the holes in my idea.

Step 1
Remove uncontested avodiance from shield block.
No tank needs uncontested avodiance to tank epic encounters in the first place. Warrior tanking/avodiance is already entirely to easy.

Step 2
Leave the + 90 heal/spell thing in (non raid wide) for crusaders who cares its useless anyway. Put strength back in though most crusaders rather have the strength thats how bad + heal/dam is.

Step 3
Make The bria's bard power regen raid wide. The main reason why a bard or enc has to be in each group is power regen. So at least make Bria's raid wide. It actually makes the most sense. Also split the value and allow one raid wide dirge bria and one troub bria to stack thus requiring both classes.

Step 4
Give monks a group (not raid wide) buff that increases spell and combat art speed by 10%. Give them an ability that lowers their group hate (if not fighter), the current AA is fine. Fighters are suppose to protect and control the battle, not buff.

Step 5
Change the entire bruiser interception AA line it still makes no sense.
rank 1 increase reuse of all intercpetion, rank 2 adds a damage absorbtion, rank 3 lower hate postion if not fighter increases hate position if fighter., rank 4 adds 10% hitpoints and adds absorbtion to bruiser. This Allow bruisers a way to lower or raise the hate position of a single ally. Leave the taunt detaunt % thing in but make it a group only buff who cares its still useless anyway.

The real Fix. REMOVE BLOCK FROM BEING UNCONTESTED. THEN FOR EACH FIGHTER IN RAID THE MAIN TANK WILL TANK BETTER.

Step 6
The avoid other fighter buff raid wide is a good idea, but short from being right. Make different versions stack (as in not 2 monks on same person stacking) and then give each fighter thier own version, also make it cost a concentration slot per target.

Monks- Target has a 10% chance to stone skin master 1. <- i would take 1 monk on raid for this.

Bruiser- Target has an extra 10% damage absorbtion at master 1. < i would take 1 bruiser on raid for this.

Paladin- Targets Heal/Ward spells are 15% more effective <- i would take 1 paladin on raid for this

Shadowknight- Targets damage spells and combat arts are 15% more effective < i would take 1 shadowknight on raid for this

Guard- leave it as it currently on live, but raid wide. <- who cares they are the main tank and just got alot better with these buffs still a useful ability for a guard in raid.

Bezerker- Siphons 5% of targets agro if not fighter, transfers 5% of agro if fighter. <- i would take 1 bezerker on raid for this, think about this for a sec the bezerker can be a funnel for agro to the guard absorbing 3-4 people and transfering it to the main tank.

THIS MEAN W A FIGHTER IN RAID IT MAKES OTHER PEOPLE DO A BETTER JOB AND THEN IT LIMITS THE ABILITY BASED ON CONC SLOTS. WHAT A NOVEL IDEA.

I will say this once again the raid wide buffs DO NOT FIX a need for more then 3 fighters in raids. It is a wash. The above idea actually creates a need for multiple fighter and follows a fighters role of protecting and controling the tide of battle. It helps in both raid and group settings and if done right is not unbalanced. The above numbers can be changed, but the idea behind them allows a reason for all 6 fighters to come on raids.

a good min/maxed raid setup would be:

Guard
templar
coercer- hate/transfer guard
defiler
swashbuckler- transfer guard
dirge- hate guard

Bezerker- siphon conj (or wizard), ranger - transfered to guard
Monk- Buff guard, zerk, paladin
assassin- tranfer on zerk
inqusitor
brigand
bruiser- buff guard, zerk, paladin

ranger
Paladin- (amend warlock) buff templar, defiler, mystic?
mystic- alacricity ranger
warden
warlock
illusionist- TC warlock, IA ranger

troubador
wizard
conjuror
necro
fury- agitate SK
Shadowknight- buff warlock, swash, wizard

I would have to look at the raid setup and maybe i would put in a second brigand in the raid if i were min/maxing, but i would have to look hard to find someone to remove. But if my suggestions worked who would you move out? My suggestions for the first time in eq2 will give everyone a role in raids. This creates 3 solid tanks w solid agro and 3 support tanks buffing other tanks in support roles. While maximising buffs and still providing good dps.

Ralazar

I agree with you there. Just trying to think of a way that they can make the most of their system since they obviously won't go back and merge classes together (which is something I think we can all agree on).

Another possibility (instead of trying to force feed fighters into a raid) would be to make more situations where a certain fighter class (or even sub-class) is much more effective. Monks are seriously screwed in this respect. I've seen some good SKs, but I think being dark knights (supposedly filled with hate) should be kings of grabbing aggro.

These are just my opinions, though. Not claiming to be right or wrong.

hoopdeeDoo

OK im all for making fighters better and all but it just wont happen with fucking everything up. 15% more healing and nuking power is just goin to lead to fucking up encounters, they'll have top rebalence every encounter. Adding more stoneskin? theres already to much in the game. The game would have to be made MUCH MUCH harder for any of these things to be put in the game. Plus if these proposed changes were to be put in u wouldnt see them for at least a year id hope or else ud just fuck up the entire game.

gungo

He was already adding in a raid wide +90 heals, +90 damage, +15 spell haste, + 25% haste, +25% dps, + str, + sta, +wis, +melee skills, +Hp regen, and +16% taunt/detaunt to everyone in raid. My suggestion limits that to a chosen 2-3 people (based on conc slots), while including the new hate nerfs, and removing uncontested (block) avodiance. You talk as if i said make these raid wide when i specifically limited them based on conc slots on individuals whiel removing the raid wide buff issue.

The funy thing is this is all alreayd in game at much more powerful buffs.

Dirges provide 15% stoneskin to EVERYONE in group.
Bruisers alreayd recieve a 9% absorbtion AA to target.
Coercers provide +% healing to anyone in group
Guards will recieve a zoen wide avoid other buff
No body has a + % damage buff, but + 15% spell haste and + 90 damage to entire raid is not far off.
5% hate transfer is hardly overpowered and at the same time hate is being universally nerfed and they were already adding in a % taunt raid.

All this and at the same time if they included a uncontested avodiance nerf would be balanced close to what is live today. The numbers are not set in stone either and can be changed for balance. If you think a 5% stoneskin is better then so be it. Or 5% damage absorbtion OR 10% healing or 10% spell damage, the design behind the idea is solid though.

I do agree thoguh stone skin on items is stupid.

hoopdeeDoo

im just opposed to anything the would totally absorb damage. With a templar, dirge and monk you would have 40% stoneskin+ boots. after a while it get to be 2 much.

gungo

Yea the problem is to buff a toon you either
A) have to add abilites to fighters trivilizing encounters in some way
B) nerf, then buff fighters trying to equal out the nerf.

What i proposed is a mix of both.

They are adding in a hate nerf.
I suggested removing uncontested block (its overpowered)

Now adding a monk to raid w 5-10% stone skin and a bruiser that adds 5-10% damage absorbtion and a paladin adding 15% to heals should equal out the uncontested avodiance nerf.

Then add a bezerker to help equal out the hate nerf along w other fighter agro control abilities. Monk has a group deagro, bruiser i suggestda hate positional increase/decreaser, paladins amends/consecrate, bezekers have the new siphon i suggested, Sk have a group siphon.

Then you add a SK to offset the loss in DPS from adding 6 fighters to raid.

In actuality i was thinking about this idea and how to balance it. The avodi abilities are gained at lvl 74, 60, 46, 32, 18, 4.

lvl 4 should give monk and bruiser and bezerker 1% at adpet 1, 2% at adept 3 and 3% at master 1. So lets list it like:
4=1-2-3%
18=2-3-4%
32=3-4-5%
46=4-5-6%
60=5-6-7%
74=6-7-8%
88=7-8-9% etc etc

and shadowknight and paladins should have
4=1-2-3%
18=3-4-5%
32=5-6-7%
46=7-8-9%
60=9-10-11%
74=11-12-13%
88=13-14-15% etc etc

and guardians wtf it is on live.

7% stone skin, damage absorbtion, and hate transfer is not overpowered for T7
11% to heals and spell damage is not overpowered for t7
Nor are the number overpwoer for T8 or any furture tier.

final questions:
what do you think adds more damage to raid a shadowknight adding 11% spell damage to 3 classes, 80 spell damage to group, his own dps and, deathmarch or a second brigand to raid?

What do you think is adds more survivability uncontested raid avoidance w SOD wpn and hate BP and adornments OR 6% stone skin and 6% damage absorbtion?

Its really not as overpowered as some may think.

although the avatar boots and the crit robe are completely overpower .

O btw did i say how overpower uncontested avoid is? Yeah guards tanking in offensive w little to no avoidance change, right. Avoiding more then a brawler in defensive! Do we see a problem here houston?

Raistin

well the issue here too is the fucked up return curves they added. If they still made miti worth a damn like in KoS u would see more tanks in the planes walker boots over the slippers.

While as a paladin id love raid wide amends....i do agree it would be close to overpowered. As it is if im in the right group and i want to i can amend someone, auto attack with sword of valor (not even the axe yet) lean back and watch myself pull agro off the MT and hold it. So raid wide and planned out, yea deff over powered

But someone hit it in here real well, the issue is the 24 man raid limit. They almost HAVE to make x5 or x6 stuff if they really want all the classes used. Gungo's fix's would solve a few things, add a little balancing to the fighter classes, and put some purpose back into them...but i dont see it happening..ever.

gungo

Has anyone figured out a reason why this idea will not work?
Or has anyone figured out a raid setup using these new abilities that doesnt encourage 1 of every class and making each of them desired for thier abilites/skills?

Even using these rules the guard is the best tank and the bezerker and paladin are the next best tanks. All fighters increase the survivability of the raid and control thier groups agro in some way. All of them have a hand in protecting thier group/raid from adds, etc. This is ideally what i would like to see and even seems to stay balanced for T8.

I actually changed the above numbers a tad and added in the skill progression for the avodi other buff ability and in no way think these current numbers are overpower. Especially considering the nerfs to hate, uncontested avodiance, etc. The T7 numbers are:

Monks- Target has a 6% chance to stone skin master 1. <- i would take 1 monk on raid for this.

Bruiser- Target has an extra 6% damage absorbtion at master 1. < i would take 1 bruiser on raid for this.

Paladin- Targets Heal/Ward spells are 11% more effective <- i would take 1 paladin on raid for this

Shadowknight- Targets damage spells and combat arts are 11% more effective < i would take 1 shadowknight on raid for this

Guard- leave it as it currently on live (54%), but raid wide. <- who cares they are the main tank and just got alot better with these buffs still a useful ability for a guard in raid.

Bezerker- Siphons 6% of targets agro if not fighter, transfers 6% of agro if fighter. <- i would take 1 bezerker on raid for this, think about this for a sec the bezerker can be a funnel for agro to the guard absorbing 3-4 people and transfering it to the main tank.

lvl 18 buff should give monk and bruiser and bezerker 1% at adpet 1, 2% at adept 3 and 3% at master 1 and so on. So lets list it like:
18=1-2-3%
32=2-3-4%
46=3-4-5%
60=4-5-6%
74=5-6-7%
88=6-7-8% etc etc

and shadowknight and paladins should have
18=3-4-5%
32=5-6-7%
46=7-8-9%
60=9-10-11%
74=11-12-13%
88=13-14-15% etc etc

guards same %'s as live