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  1. #1
    beauty in brevity ta0ist's Avatar
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    Default EQ2 Class Dynamics

    I'm bored and I want to talk about class dynamics like it were a physics course in dimensional analysis. I put about a half hour into this so bear with me, and please tear it to shreds. I want to talk about "maximization and synergies of class potential and focuses."

    Well start with a list of all current player classes in the game (25), and assign to them a letter value which will help condense information:

    • Assassin – A
    • Beastlord – B
    • Berserker – C
    • Brigand – D
    • Bruiser – E
    • Coercer – F
    • Conjuror – G
    • Defiler – H
    • Dirge – I
    • Fury – J
    • Guardian – K
    • Illusionist – L
    • Inquisitor – M
    • Monk – N
    • Mystic – O
    • Necromancer – P
    • Paladin – Q
    • Ranger – R
    • Shadowknight – S
    • Swashbuckler – T
    • Templar – U
    • Troubadour – V
    • Warden – W
    • Warlock – X
    • Wizard – Y

    For the sake of argument, we will bypass discussion of archetype since what we will be considering are very specific combinations only. To start, we will need an agreeable format as a basis for our analysis. For this I have devised a way in which to think about the matter thusly:

    • Repetition of classes inside of a group or raid is good to a degree. However, this can significantly impact performance of the whole; either from a survivability or damage standpoint.

    • Importance is relative, and can be subjected to factors such as gear, player skill, and other operator factors. For simplicity, we will assume a level playing field and leave gear, skill, and other things outside of pertinent discussion. Assume all classes are played to maximum potential when idealizing set-ups. Think only in terms of innate class ability.

    • Combat encounters vary, and while there may be a one-size-fits-all combination of classes, what we want to establish here is that for most encounters there is room for optimization and improvement concerning sustainable damage output and survivability based on certain synergies. Finding equilibrium for that goal will surely point to biases, and flaws in the end-game design as far as class balancing.

    The mathematics behind combinations is rather straight forward and simple, so this is the primary method we will use when talking about group and raid set-up. First, we need to define how much repetition should be allowed. In the case where repetition is allowed without bound, the total number of class combinations in a full raid comes out to 25C24 = 32,247,603,683,100! This is just asking for a headache. So, we need to reduce that to a reasonable number by restricting the number of repetition of classes allowed. How should we go about doing that? Well, it depends on how you wish to optimize your group/raid. With more DPS in mind, you may want to have more than one Warlock or Assassin, but with survivability in mind you may wish to have more than one Mystic or Inquisitor, as the case may be. In either case, I believe two-four is a reasonable range.

    This is all good and well, but how does this information help? It doesn’t really. We need to dig deeper and begin talking about literal combinations, and describe the effect of sets of classes and sets of groups of class combination, and account for out-of-group beneficial spells, etc. While I’m positive that there are many people with a better overall understanding of these abilities and are highly practiced in putting them together, this approach may serve to give others a better understanding in a simpler and straight forward way and accelerate a team oriented understanding.

    Let’s start with a single class and build up from there, starting with their purpose followed by their abilities, and see what classes line up while we try to maximize damage out-put of the overall group.
    • Shadowknight; tank/crusader class, primarily deals spell based disease damage. For our purposes, this will be the only tank in the group.
    • Dirge; scout/bard class, primarily deals disease damage. For our purposes, this will be the only bard in the group.
    • Illusionist; mage/enchanter class, primarily deals mental damage. For our purposes, this will be the only enchanter in the group.
    • Necromancer; mage/summoner class, primarily deals disease damage. For our purposes, this will be the only summoner in the group.
    • Inquisitor; healer/cleric class, primarily deals divine damage. For our purposes, this will be the only healer in the group.
    • Warlock; mage/sorcerer class, primarily deals disease damage. For our purposes this will be the only sorcerer in the group.

    Obviously, there are more factors to consider than just the type of damage a class deals, but by design, the alignment of such a simple thing like the type of damage dealt creates a bias that could be useful in a specific encounter. Using our new notation,

    SILPMX = DPS (with a disease damage bias)

    Similarly, this logic can be used to focus on longevity instead, whereby sacrificing damage in order to stay alive longer and easier. Qute, right? We can extend this into a raid paradigm, and break down the variables according to a blend of functionality and desired biases.

    Now, let’s go a step further and talk about two groups. Maybe we want to set up a group for survivability, and another for pure damage output. Then we might have something along the lines of

    G1: {DUAOIF}, G2: {VLMXGY}

    As you can see, there’s plenty room for debate here, and that’s what we should want to see.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    You can eliminate a lot possibilities by making a template. Each group is going to have a bard, a chanter, and a healer. No real way around it, any group without those 3 will no doubt suffer. What goes in the other 3 spots will pretty much determine each one of these as well. Troubs and Illies will accompany Mages, dirges will accompany scouts.
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  3. #3
    beauty in brevity ta0ist's Avatar
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    Right, I get that, and I think it's a good point. Although, there are still choices to be made, and those choices might depend on what exactly one is fighting, and tune accordingly.

  4. #4
    beauty in brevity ta0ist's Avatar
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    Also, you might consider the benefits of mass adornment alignment across a group/raid, and the ability to use peripherals like tinkering items, potions, etc. Generally, though, that's not what matters here, because you can actually think of those things as subsets of those combinations.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    Not so with chanter. As far as heroic zones go, my favorite group are as follows (I can't work with your letters, sorry bro):

    Monk(any tank really, but CM is cool), Dirge, Swash, Brigand, Assassin, Beastlord. Melee dps group for easy heroic content. Pot your own dets, don't even give a fuck. Dirge oration and Beastlord group heals will keep the group healed, while the dps numbers shit on mobs faces. This is like a 1.3 million+ dps group, even moreso post GU63 when swashes get Stampede 2.0. Beastlord power regen/buffs also somewhat make up for lack of chanter.

    SK, Troub, Illy, Wizard, Warlock, Beastlord. Mage dps group for easy heroic content. Same as above with the heals, but add sk lifetaps and warlock dark siphoning instead of monk lolavoids and dirge heals. Conj works instead of Wizard, necro works instead of warlock.

    Monk(any tank etc same as above), Dirge, Illy, Swash, Beastlord, Mystic. Melee dps group for mid-hard heroic content and easy raids. I prefer mystic over inq cus RoA/wards, but either works. Swash has to be there because any other melee dps class won't transfer enough hate to the tank to keep aggro off my beastlord (Unless the tank is a paladin, then the swash can be whatever. Extremely well played zerkers/sks/guards can probably also keep aggro, but brawlers don't generate enough hate).

    SK, Troub, Illy, Wizard, Warlock, Fury. Mage dps for mid-hard heroic content and easy raids. Inq in place of fury works well, conj in place of wizard, necro in place of warlock are fine. Paladin in place of sk is also fine.

    Bruiser, Dirge, Assassin, Beastlord, Mystic, Inq. GU63 heroic challenge group, melee. These zones will melt your dick off (at least dracur prime). Spiritual BL in place of chanter, defiler or templar are also very acceptable in place of mystic/inq. You'll need a defiler at least as a plate tank, templar would make it a lot easier too.


    I'll think about 2 group stuff later, but I prefer 2 melee groups to 1 melee 1 mage.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    You have no basis for comparison in that diatribe. You can't effectively do what you are trying to do without laying down a set of values for both the classes and specific encounter. You'd additionally need to lay down comparitive multipliers that adjust a specific classes value relative to the other claes in group or raid. The class values would also need an accurate sliding scale to account for level of gear done some classes are more gear dependent than others depending upon the relative method of comparison.

    Basically you've stumbled upon the limitations of an academic approach. Unless you simplify the problem at hand (via assumptions) to a point where the exercise is useless for actual application or approach an exceeding unrealistic cost:benefit ratio, then you cannot solve the posed question.
    Last edited by grandmasterub; 04-04-2012 at 05:55 PM.
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  7. #7
    beauty in brevity ta0ist's Avatar
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
    You have no basis for comparison in that diatribe.
    Who are you talking to?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
    You can't effectively do what you are trying to do without laying down a set of values for both the classes and specific encounter.
    What do you think we're trying to do? How would you go about setting [numerical?] values for encounters?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
    You'd additionally need to lay down comparitive multipliers that adjust a specific classes value relative to the other claes in group or raid.
    What would the comparative multipliers describe?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
    The class values would also need an accurate sliding scale to account for level of gear done some classes are more gear dependent than others depending upon the relative method of comparison.
    For the sake of usefulness of this thread, we have to leave the human-error factor out; however, the point about gear is valid, but, again, not useful for our purposes.

    The method of comparison as I interpret your meaning to be is play-style of said player?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
    Basically you've stumbled upon the limitations of an academic approach.
    What would be a a more useful approach? I assume you mean something less learned and more experience based?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
    Unless you simplify the problem at hand (via assumptions) to a point where the exercise is useless for actual application or approach an exceeding unrealistic cost:benefit ratio, then you cannot solve the posed question.
    We're not looking for a Unified Theory of EverQuest 2, what we want out of this is some better understanding of class balancing and application. The logic is sound, but isn't meant to be reduced to numbers, or generalizing into nothingness. Also, I don't remember posing a question.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    I see. I may have misunderstood this thread and it went way over my head~

    If I were to set a numerical value for an encounter (excluding crit chance), I would base it off of:

    Incurable Debuff
    -Power drain?
    -Lowers cast/reuse/recovery?
    -Lowers other stats?
    Damage Shield/Aura/Whatever
    -CC?
    -Power drain?
    Proc
    -20-40k = 1 point
    -40-60k = 2 points
    -60-100k = 3 points
    -100-130k = 4 points
    -130k-200k = 5 points
    -Power drain = 5 points
    Class Debuff
    -Scout/Mage/Priest = 1 point
    -Fighter = 2 points
    AoEs?
    -Number
    -Damage
    -CC? Debuffs?
    -Power drains?
    -Avoidable?
    Curses
    -Effects?
    -Number?
    -Cure/Don't Cure?
    -Necessary healers?
    Red Text
    -Timer?
    -Range?
    -Stoneskinnable/ae avoidable?
    Movement
    -High movement = 3 points per mage, 2 points per priest?
    -Low movement?
    -No movement?
    Adds
    -HP?
    -Linked?
    -Memwipe?
    -Stuns/KBs/other CC?
    -Co-Op strike?
    -Aoes?
    -Number?
    Memwipe
    -Timer?
    -Positions?
    Charm
    -Fuck you
    Damage immunities
    -Frequency?
    -Archetype-limited?
    -Number-limited?
    Environment/Item click effects
    -Frequency?
    -Effect?
    -CCs/Debuffs?
    Teleports?
    -Rooted?
    -How far?
    Necessary tanks?



    Good luck assigning numbers to everything though. That's about as far as I can go right now, my attention span isn't very long today.

  9. #9
    beauty in brevity ta0ist's Avatar
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffrat View Post
    I see. I may have misunderstood this thread and it went way over my head~

    If I were to set a numerical value for an encounter (excluding crit chance), I would base it off of:

    Incurable Debuff
    -Power drain?
    -Lowers cast/reuse/recovery?
    -Lowers other stats?
    Damage Shield/Aura/Whatever
    -CC?
    -Power drain?
    Proc
    -20-40k = 1 point
    -40-60k = 2 points
    -60-100k = 3 points
    -100-130k = 4 points
    -130k-200k = 5 points
    -Power drain = 5 points
    Class Debuff
    -Scout/Mage/Priest = 1 point
    -Fighter = 2 points
    AoEs?
    -Number
    -Damage
    -CC? Debuffs?
    -Power drains?
    -Avoidable?
    Curses
    -Effects?
    -Number?
    -Cure/Don't Cure?
    -Necessary healers?
    Red Text
    -Timer?
    -Range?
    -Stoneskinnable/ae avoidable?
    Movement
    -High movement = 3 points per mage, 2 points per priest?
    -Low movement?
    -No movement?
    Adds
    -HP?
    -Linked?
    -Memwipe?
    -Stuns/KBs/other CC?
    -Co-Op strike?
    -Aoes?
    -Number?
    Memwipe
    -Timer?
    -Positions?
    Charm
    -Fuck you
    Damage immunities
    -Frequency?
    -Archetype-limited?
    -Number-limited?
    Environment/Item click effects
    -Frequency?
    -Effect?
    -CCs/Debuffs?
    Teleports?
    -Rooted?
    -How far?
    Necessary tanks?



    Good luck assigning numbers to everything though. That's about as far as I can go right now, my attention span isn't very long today.
    Nice.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: EQ2 Class Dynamics

    I was basically just just saying the problem you have posed is not solvable without specifics which haven't yet been provided. And as buffrat has shown the level of specfics needed is a rather insurmountable figure.

    I believe what youre trying to do though is determine relative value in classes on an encounter by encounter basis.

    IE does the addition of a second illy in a mage group over a warlock increase or decrease
    the value of said group?

    I was just saying to actually determine that beyond generalized opinion you'd need an extensive set of values and modifiers to determine overall value.
    Chasse - 92 Warden
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