Defiler in OT Group - Page 2

Operation · 10-23-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enragedcow

... Okay, thanks I suppose, though I don't recall anyone mentioning that they had this particular problem. My question was about the role of the Defiler in the OT group, not about who is topping the heal parse...

I'm sorry that you can't connect A - C without going through B first.

The only reason you should be in the OT group...

1. There is another Defiler in the MT group already.

2. Your raid leader is a masochist who beats his dick like it owes him money while trying to kill mobs the hard way.

3. You suck.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that from your description you may be experiencing #2. If you're looking for some kind of rosetta stone or paint by numbers instructions for raid healing, forget it. The job is too dynamic and you will either "get it" or you won't...

(and no, shadow warding IS NOT a sin. If the mystic complains, a simple FUCK OFF should suffice.)

enragedcow · 10-23-2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinoo

I'm usually spamming my wards so much in the MT group that it really doesn't matter if there's someone else overwriting me. As long as there's a full ward on the tank, that's a good thing. Unless you're doing trivial content where the tank is taking very little damage (in which case, who cares which ward ends up absorbing the damage?), there's a good chance that even when you're overwriting you're simply refreshing a ward that was already weakened by damage. Given the recast on the single target ward you can guarantee it's always up on the tank if you and the mystic are both spamming it.

Thats kind of what I was thinking. I can see both sides of the debate though - I will have to talk with her and see if she has a set preference one way or the other. We've talked a bit, but never really hashed it out.

On trash, yea, not a big deal to try and double stack... but on tough fights where MT might go down, my thinking is the same as yours: Good to try and have a "full" ward up whenever possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinoo

Regardless, you and the mystic should be switched. It really shouldn't be a senority thing, but simply the way our class is built. Either of the shaman do fine in the MT spot, but it's the primary healer spot where we excel. I would disagree if the mystic is that much better geared or simply that much of a better healer but with skill being equal swapping the two of you would be more beneficial to the raid. With two defilers, I can understand senority basing where each one will go but with both shaman senority shouldn't come into play on who gets the MT shaman position. If equal skill and gear, the defiler always, and it has little to do with the defiler being better in that position than a mystic (we are slightly more efficient there) but simply that the mystic does so much more than a defiler outside of the MT position.

I agree completely, I've brought it up, but no change really. I'm torn, because yes, it absolutely makes more sense. When I'm outside MT group, I feel very underutilized, and when Mystic is in MT group, they have a lot of lost DPS potential... so all other things being equal, it absolutely makes sense to switch out.

On the other hand, I am pretty new to the alliance, she's been with them since EQ1, and she's good at what she does, so I am not interested in trying to rock the boat that much and force her out of MT group if that's what she enjoys

We're playing the game to have fun after all, and we aren't really hitting content so tough that min/maxing is vital. The switch would absolutely help out, but I'm respectful of the situation and don't want to try and make her feel unappreciated or left out, anything like that. Raids/Guilds tend to have enough drama as it is, without my trying to make more hahah.

Mero · 10-23-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enragedcow

Our alliance generally runs both a mystic and a defiler, and usually the mystic is in the MT group and I'm in the OT group.

cus running more than 2 shaman in a raid totally screws up synergy right ?

really it doesnt matter

Koinoo · 10-23-2009, 12:22 PM

I wouldn't worry so much about it if the content you're doing is trivial or if your raid force doesn't care much for min/maxing. When you start working on progression and are having any trouble, don't be afraid to talk to the mystic to get their thoughts. I wouldn't come across with a "defiler is better than mystic" attitude (though I'm biased towards the defiler for obvious reasons). Realistically we are fantastic healers whereever we are, but we bring so little utility to a group aside from simply keeping everyone alive. If your mystic is skilled and knows their class, they will be able to do so much more in an offtank or DPS group. That's definately not saying that they suck and don't deserve a MT healer role--only that they're not nearly as restricted in their utility offerings as a defiler.

enragedcow · 10-23-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinoo

I wouldn't worry so much about it if the content you're doing is trivial or if your raid force doesn't care much for min/maxing. When you start working on progression and are having any trouble, don't be afraid to talk to the mystic to get their thoughts. I wouldn't come across with a "defiler is better than mystic" attitude (though I'm biased towards the defiler for obvious reasons). Realistically we are fantastic healers whereever we are, but we bring so little utility to a group aside from simply keeping everyone alive. If your mystic is skilled and knows their class, they will be able to do so much more in an offtank or DPS group. That's definately not saying that they suck and don't deserve a MT healer role--only that they're not nearly as restricted in their utility offerings as a defiler.

Exactly. She's damn good, and I know she'd be able to pretty seamlessly float between tossing out the DPS and healing the OT group as necessary. Mystics definitely kill defilers on utility, so yea, it just boils down to where each class can benefit the raid better, not which class is "better" period.

On our old backflagging content it's not nearly enough of a difference to care, but when we start hitting TSO content more, I'll see about bringing it up.

Torrent · 10-23-2009, 01:19 PM

I'm also a defiler in "not the MT group", but am the only defiler in the raid. I'd like to be able to debuff the named while I am actively healing an OT who is holding adds.

I could set up a pair of targetting macros and swap back and forth between the named and my tank (or the tank's target), but is there a better way?

arieste · 10-23-2009, 04:12 PM

We always have at least two defilers in the raid. Sometimes I'm in the MT group, sometimes I'm in OT. TBH, with TSO, I'm not sure exactly what the MT group is half the time, since there are usually multiple things to be tanked and multiple tanks doing it. (i kid, MT group is the one of the "main mob" by definition, but you get my meaning i hope). Sometimes it's harder being in MT group, sometimes it's harder being in the OT group. Other times you end up solo curing the mage group through a 3 AE encounter and wanna /wrist. Honestly, I think if you have multiple "equally capable" shamans and you don't rotate them, then you lose something, since when your "main" shammy is not around or needs to do another role, they may not know it as well.

I think there is always something to do in your group on a hard fight. And on an easy fight, no one cares.

As far as cross-warding, we run on a general principle that the MT group will keep the MT up. That being said, if my tank (when i'm OT or w/e) is not tanking and the MT is getting hit hard, I'll occassionally crossward. The way I figure is like this - if the tank is getting hit super hard, then the ward will be down a second after it's cast and there will be minimal overlap. On the other hand, if the tank is not getting hit hard - well, who gives a shit if there is a little overlap - he's not getting hit hard anyway.

Oh and another minor thing I do is check whether the other shaman is wearing the deadly bane proc, and if they aren't, I know that my wards are adding DPS to the tank.

And of course debuffs.

profe · 10-23-2009, 06:38 PM

You should straight heal or apply any fully stacking wards when healing someone out of group that is likely to already have a single target ward. The exceptions would be if the other shaman is for the moment dead, out of range, or unable to cast. And even in those cases only one of the other shamans should temporarily take over, not all. Coordinate it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torrent

I could set up a pair of targetting macros and swap back and forth between the named and my tank (or the tank's target), but is there a better way?

That is what I do and I believe it to be the best way. Pressing 1 is /target Tank. This might be my tank or someone else's tank depending on the fight. Pressing 2 is /target Name and sometimes also has one or more /target Add commands which will then target an add when it's there otherwise target the name when an add isn't there. As we progress through the zone, I change the values.

Zionn · 10-23-2009, 10:22 PM

The problem with shadow warding is typically the non-Mt shaman's wards will be quite a bit lower than the MT's wards due to coercive healing. My wards are minimum 7k, and I know any shaman outside my group will not be getting that high, so they risk overwriting a large ward with quite a smaller one. Besides, if you're good enough, your other shamans shouldn't have to shadow ward the tank.

And if you can't heal the MT and keep all debuffs on the mob, especially since the major ones have quite a long duration and very fast cast time, you suck at your class, and need to roll a different toon.

A large majority of the time, you will not be doing a ton of healing as an OT shaman, therefore, start getting some dps gear and putting out some numbers. An OT defiler is quite boring to play, so you need to learn how to play your class to its fullest.

enragedcow · 10-23-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zionn

... An OT defiler is quite boring to play...

Agreed