Vlix_Oasis

That is kind of what I was getting at, you shouldn't have to use it. There should always be something much better up to use. The exception IMO is where Dibbis is using it: Ranged.

I use something similar to Dibbis, except Banshee on INC. I do use it when I need to stay jousted but I always get right on the Debuffs and then the storm when I don't. I have always lost DPS using Banshee early and it also gets resisted alot too.

My 2 cents:

Gear makes a difference is what you prioritize. A perfect example is Luda's which if you have a large gap between spell and melee mods. You would use it later and your melee stuff first. If the gap isn't that vast, then Luda's is worth casting much earlier. It's a solid chunk of damage and often a higher Priority than some of the melee attacks.

Second is recast and conflicts there. In Dibbis's order, Daro's would be ready for recast right at the time he wants to hit Thuri's. So something like:

Daro's Dull Blade
Darksong Blade
Shroud + Misfortune's Kiss
Lucky Break > Tarven's > Luda's
Thuri's
Daro's Dull Blade

...would be better.

One way to check your casting order is put each in there "so-called" slots. If you can find a better CA than what you have there now, your result will be better.

In the case above, Howl of Death is dropped for Daro's which is more damage. Also now you have Howl of Death free so you can use that instead of Lanet's later on.

Third is practicing on a dummy. Remember Raid buffs and even group buffs have a drastic effect on your results. Such things as Recast and Reuse speed, JCap/ RoA, PoM, Dispatch and Haste can really fuck things up that you may have thought were tight when you hit the dummy. Then when you get in a raid, you notice your delaying autoattacks or stuff is coming up alot sooner than you planned or worse things are out of sorts with temp buffs.

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Dibbis

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Orani

This is a good reason to keep an observation on your in-combat haste mod and/or weapon delay as it becomes volatile in-combat. Depending on group setup and # of Dirges casting CoB and self-buffed attack speed, weapon delays jump from 2.4s, 2.7s, 3.1s, and 3.4s. Mod the ProfitUI data bottombar to show the proper.

Once ya memorized a baseline of cast times for everything, then I found properly pairing the casts easier when in-combat cast, reuse, and recovery speeds become volatile.

Orani

Ok, then how about when the mob's health is at 20% and ya have Banshee ready to cast. Depending on group or raidwide dps, it might be ok to cast Banshee and it might not be good to cast. Once again, DoTs are useless if not allowed to go to their full term which is ~14s-16s. This applies in the middle of fights and not just the beginning.

Using your cast routine from the beginning, if by the time ya cast Darksong and the mobs health is at 30% already, then the group/raid wide dps indicat ya will only get ~5s, maybe, worth of damage out of that particular DoT due to mob dieing so fast. In this case, better to cast it on a new mob in the chain pull.

Indeed true, I was only pointing out the obvious in how the casting routine is not applicable in all situations as a previous poster suggests.

Extremely circumstantial. Depending on your group setup, Bravo's Dance can be a godsend, no help at all, or only nice for one of its mod buffs. I know I am not ALWAYS in the optimal instance group build or raid group to keep Haste and DPS mod at, or even near, the cap.

Including unbuffed recovery time, takes ~.8s additional time to cast an additional HO macro with Verliens. The only DPS you would lose would be from Doleful Thrust, Turnstrike, or Rhythm Blade since all are ~.9s cast and IF they are available to cast. (These seconds to cast is based upon my self buffed casting of 38% after 12Tone.)

Ya only have have a time frame cast window defined by your weapon delay. Silly to have a pause, where waiting for autoattack, in this window where you could have utilized ~.8s of that pause to do another HO macro without delaying the autoattack.

Where is the noticeable DPS sacrifice?

Splorch

I've been away from playing for a while, but....

Chime - Shroud - SoD* - HO - Evasive Maneuvers - Keen* - Bump - Misfortunes* - Rhythm - Daro's - Darksong* - Doleful thrust - Banshee* - Phys mit debuff - HO - Attack speed Debuff* - Scream - Howl* - Other encounter debuffs* - HO - Crippling - Doleful thrust* - Shroud - Misfortunes - Chime* - Daro's - HO - Keen* - Darksong and so on.

Where all the *'s are is pretty much perfectly where every single auto attack landed. The system worked fine for me, but then again its what i was always used to. I didnt sit there and watch any auto attack bars or wait for dings. After raiding for so long it just worked out perfectly for me almost every single time.

I don't profess that this is the best option ever and I don't stick to it, its just my usual thought process.

Dibbis

ok lol ill try to break it down for yah:

Like previously stated it is a baseline. i didnt list anything aside from what gets you started for the first 10 secs or so in a fight...

go from there and, again like mentioned before, pick your next abilities in a DPS efficient order. NO CAST ORDERS WILL BE SET FOR ANYONE, EVER... or your hurting your dps.

you can set aside a start of your cast order, but once you get past all the important things in the order they always should occur, my order stops. i dont ever just sit and wait. ill cast things i didnt even mention to stop any downtime.

you should always be thinkin on the fly. on trash you will get in your rhythm, same with avatars, instanced bosses, etc.

i mean im not putting hidden meanings in my posts or cast order. i typed up the start, same with anyone else who posts cast orders on the site. frankly thats all you can do. With all that can change in a fight you need to adapt with it. whats best in one situation isnt in another. that should be obvious, didnt think i had to exsplain that to you. of course i wont waste abilities that take 16 secs to tick through when there is only 5 secs of a fight left and we are chain pulling. that would be stupid. and i never said i did that...

AGAIN IF ITS NOT CLEAR TO YOU YET, THIS IS A BASELINE! i even said this in my post with my cast order *REMEMBER, CAST ORDERS ARE ALWAYS SUBJECT TO CHANGE, CONSIDERING YOUR BUFFS AND ALL*

yes you can say my cast order is a viable option for the first 8-10 secs of most fights cause it is. but i never listed anything after that time because like i said, to much changes. you should be able to tell what will net you the most dps at any given moment. its not hard at all and you have to do it. no one will give you a magic cast order thats amazing in every fight because it doesnt exist.

Also the mobs health is never at 30% when i hit darksong. i have it very early in my cast order. if you have used my starter then you should know that.

Darksong is also the reason i dont use a second HO macro. to get the most dps out of it i get it in early, along with the other spells/ca's that net the most dps early and over time. holding off darksong, or wasting time getting in something uneeded too early just hurts ya. You only need one HO macro, and that one is up every 10 secs.

Plain and simple my cast order is set up to net the most DPS early on and throughout the fight. sure some things are arguable in it, but using it as a baseline and a starter is good for most.

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Orani

Yep, I completely agree that every cast routine must be adaptable to the volatile in-combat environment within each encounter. I just do not agree with some of your baseline and stating my observations of your baseline compared to my experience as well.

Just prodding here to figure if I can find where my logic is faulty to be improved. I was hoping for something more substantial than "heck, been parsing high so this is why", which is only half, if half, of the parse story.

Ya do not have Darksong cast that early. You cast it approximately ~8s (to ~12s if mob must travel a bit when pulled) assuming a slightly buffed recovery speed and 38% cast buff (with 12tone). Even later depending on the number of green debuffs ya cast if ya cast them. So, ya not casting Darksong that early. Heck, seems like Darksong is even casted later than that assuming proper cast pairing and short ~.1s to ~.3s pauses so to not neglecting very slight lag affects between the time windows to not delay an autoattack.

Lucky Break is a ~5s recast which means ya are able to easily have at least 2 HO macros without hindering DPS order as described in my previous post. Once again, where is the noticeable DPS sacrifice?

I do not know how ya can say ya only need one. I enjoy doubling, at the least, my chances at a possibility of getting better DPS that Bravo Dance provides in the two mods if lacking, which they are to me since I am not ALWAYS in the optimum group builds for instances or for raids.

Dibbis

I have darksong in early, and imo the perfect spot, putting it in to early or late will always lower dps. to early and you might have not been able to get in other more important DPS abilities first. to late and you wont see much or as much as you should from the ca.

getting SOD in earlier is more important becasue of its duration/termination hit. banshee is also more important due to the termination nuke making it very worthwhile to get it in first. and to late into a fight you may not see that hit. then, dot wise, you get in darksong. Daros is first becasue its always gave me more dps and can squeeze it in again at least once more. but when it comes to darksong, its not like the other dots we have, the big hits are first and closer to the end it gets very low. wont hurt as much to miss one tick on that than it would to get more SoD ticks and the banshee termination hit. i usually get it to tick through no matter what where i have it but theres always a chance on those quick fights that are < 20 secs you may miss a small tick.

its perfectly fine where it is and taking it elsewhere for a retardedly small HO nuke or buff im already capped on is stupid. in all group situations i can get to the cap on dps mod/haste with temp adorns and gear swapping. im not gunna lower dps for a small chance at something worthless. when i already have 1 shot at it in my cast order every 10 secs. between the casts of my 1 HO macro i can generally always find something better to cast.

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Mero

Dibbis is pro, dont argue with the man.

Orani

First off, HO nuke was not even in the picture. lol. And of course the buff is useless to YOU since ya already capped as ya suggest. /sigh

With two Enchantments, they just give ya 30 DPS mod. No haste temp adorns I am aware of other than Badger Claws able to give ~40s, ~+30 Attack Speed buff, but these are tough to accumulate. Other than MC str imbue and Commander ring, I don't know what else ya referring to able to get ya capped on DPS & Haste mode so very easy in any group build with gear swaps. Then I agree, in your circumstance, YOU would lose dps, however negeligible the actual loss.

Apparently, both coming from a different background. You apparently have quite nice gear where DPS/Haste mod is quite irrelevant since ya admit ya able to get it near cap regardless of group build. On the other hand, I don't have access to the same gear just yet. Fair enough.