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  1. #21
    IT'S OVER 9000 gahnand's Avatar
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    But that's not to say it trumps your point about itemization. If the 6s suck well then it doesn't really matter

    Sent from my RM-860_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

  2. #22
    Hi! Rosso's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    can get 2-3 off with 4's and 3-4 off with 6's.

  3. #23
    "That Guy" Maergoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    My argument was that there is no inherent flaw in 6s delay. The flaw is with the available 6s delay weapons.
    In fact, there are advantages to 6s delay weapons, including being able to get further into your debuffs early without sacrificing anything.

    Maybe there is some not immediately obvious effect, such as getting 1 less hit in for VC, resulting in slightly less damage. Which may go either way, I didn't look into it.. but I wasn't experiencing it.

    Even if there aren't many effects that don't proc off auto attack, all the ones that do also proc off of combat arts.
    And again, unless you're running out of stuff to click, you're getting basically the same number of hits off in the same amount of time.. depending which time frame you're looking at.



    Assuming 1s cast/recover and no haste..
    12 second window with 4s delay:
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack

    12 second window with 6s delay:
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack



    With haste / cast speed / recovery that comes down to 2-3/3-4 per auto attack, which reduces the discrepancy between the two, but doesn't remove it.
    Last edited by Maergoth; 11-04-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matin View Post
    wow it sickens me to even believe your a person, no human being would say this

    shame on you

  4. #24
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    Quote Originally Posted by Maergoth View Post
    My argument was that there is no inherent flaw in 6s delay. The flaw is with the available 6s delay weapons.
    In fact, there are advantages to 6s delay weapons, including being able to get further into your debuffs early without sacrificing anything.

    Maybe there is some not immediately obvious effect, such as getting 1 less hit in for VC, resulting in slightly less damage. Which may go either way, I didn't look into it.. but I wasn't experiencing it.

    Even if there aren't many effects that don't proc off auto attack, all the ones that do also proc off of combat arts.
    And again, unless you're running out of stuff to click, you're getting basically the same number of hits off in the same amount of time.. depending which time frame you're looking at.



    Assuming 1s cast/recover and no haste..
    12 second window with 4s delay:
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack

    12 second window with 6s delay:
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack
    cast cast cast cast cast cast
    Auto attack



    With haste / cast speed / recovery that comes down to 2-3/3-4 per auto attack, which reduces the discrepancy between the two, but doesn't remove it.
    Dual wielding is a 33% delay, so..

    4s:
    Auto
    Castx5
    Auto
    Castx5
    Auto
    Cast

    6s:
    Auto
    Castx8(delaying your auto .02 seconds, but whatever)
    Auto
    Castx4


    Capped haste but keeping with 1 second cast/recovery to simulate normal raiding lag:

    4s
    Auto
    Castx2
    Auto
    Castx2
    Auto
    Castx2
    Auto
    Castx2
    Auto
    Castx2
    (Auto)

    6s:
    Auto
    Castx3
    Auto
    Castx3
    Auto
    Castx3
    Auto
    Castx1


    If anything 4s are better for bards because every 2 CAs you get a little (0.4s) breathing room to cast a longer spell (ae, howl, etc) instead of getting .6 every 3 CAs.
    Last edited by Buffrat; 11-04-2013 at 08:25 PM.

  5. #25
    "That Guy" Maergoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    It can flex in either direction depending on circumstance, but these are very minor differences in DPS. The difference is the ability to get the debuffs in early without losing dps.

    Not that you can't get them in either way, but in a world where getting people to debuff is like pulling teeth, encouraging people to focus on an incredibly small amount of extra dps is probably not a good idea ;/
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    Quote Originally Posted by matin View Post
    wow it sickens me to even believe your a person, no human being would say this

    shame on you

  6. #26
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffrat View Post
    Not only are 4s the staple delay some of the unnamed individuals have been using since RoK, they're still itemized better than 6s.
    Since TSO. The Dirge epic was 3.5 second delay until TSO hit so the only effective weapon we could really use in RoK was Marrow's Song, since 3.5 delays were almost non-existant. From TSO on, 4s weapons have been the most itemized and imo, most ideal delay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maergoth View Post
    It can flex in either direction depending on circumstance, but these are very minor differences in DPS. The difference is the ability to get the debuffs in early without losing dps.

    Not that you can't get them in either way, but in a world where getting people to debuff is like pulling teeth, encouraging people to focus on an incredibly small amount of extra dps is probably not a good idea ;/
    The cast time on our encounter debuffs was lowered not too long ago so it's easier than ever to quickly throw in the debuffs, which also all buff the group if you have the points in Prestige, which you absolutely should. If people don't think buffs and debuffs increase dps, I don't know what to say. Either way, justifying a longer delay based on 5 debuffs (our single target snare is a huge nox debuff that some people seem to overlook) that we can quickly cast is silly.

    The real reason to use 4s delays is still procs imo. More hits equals more chances to proc things. When it comes to things like VC and Stampede that proc 100% of the time, more hits without a doubt equals more procs.

    Lets assume your VC has a duration of 10s, as most Dirges will be, you have 100 aoe auto, as you should, and you're fighting a group of 3 linked mobs, which is not uncommon. The difference is even greater when fighting 5-8 mobs, but that is less common.

    (4s delay weapons with 200 haste, 2.4s actual delay)
    VC cast
    Autoattack (3 procs)(0s)
    Echoing Howl (3 procs)
    Darksong Spin (3 procs)
    If no lag, one more CA (1 proc)
    Autoattack (3 procs)(2.4s)
    Jarol's Sorrowful Requiem (3 procs)
    If no lag, one more CA (1 proc)
    Autoattack (3 procs)(4.8s)
    Wail of the banshee (3 procs)
    If no lag, one more CA (1 proc)
    Autoattack (3 procs)(7.2s)
    Any other 2 CA's (2 procs)
    If no lag, one more CA (1 proc)
    Autoattack (3 procs)(9.6s)
    If no lag (which at this point in the rotation is supremely unlikely), one more CA (1 proc)
    VC ends. (10s)

    Total of 34 procs if no lag, 29 procs if there's average raid lag.


    (6s delay weapons with 200 haste, 3.6s actual delay)
    VC cast
    Autoattack (3 procs)(0s)
    Echoing Howl (3 procs)
    Jarol's Sorrowful Requiem (3 procs)
    If no lag, one more CA (1 proc)
    Autoattack (3 procs)(3.6s)
    Darksong Spin (3 procs)
    Wail of the banshee (3 procs)
    If no lag, one more CA (1 proc)
    Autoattack (3 procs)(7.2s)
    Any other 3 CA's (3 procs)
    VC ends. (10s)
    Autoattack (10.8s)

    Total of 26 procs if no lag, 23 if average raid lag.


    More procs = more better.

  7. #27
    "That Guy" Maergoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    More hits does not equal many more procs though. Faster auto attack just means MORE of your hits are auto attacks. Especially if you're talking fast cast stuff like combat arts.
    I'd say every 4 rounds of auto attacks you'd get one extra hit MAYBE, because auto attack does not have a cast time. How are you figuring only 2-3 casts with 6s? I can get 3-4 off easily. Do you have no recovery speed?

    And with lag, you have to consider that the faster your weapon, the more of your swing is wasted by delaying auto attack (via lag especially). Delaying a 1s delay by .5 seconds means you've lost half an auto attack worth of damage. Delaying a 5 second delay by .5 seconds means you've only lost 10% of an auto attack worth of damage. Maybe that counts as 6s being easier, not better, but I can't help but feel it has to be taken into account.

    Like I said, maybe there's a facet of this that I'm ignoring, or not giving enough value to, but the primary reason 4s delays are used is because of how heavily itemized they are.. and how the best weapons available happen to be 4s delays. I stand by the fact that there is nothing inherently wrong with 6s delays.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matin View Post
    wow it sickens me to even believe your a person, no human being would say this

    shame on you

  8. #28
    IT'S OVER 9000 gahnand's Avatar
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    Ae auto triggers procs?

    Sent from my RM-860_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

  9. #29
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    Quote Originally Posted by Maergoth View Post
    More hits does not equal many more procs though. Faster auto attack just means MORE of your hits are auto attacks. Especially if you're talking fast cast stuff like combat arts.
    I'd say every 4 rounds of auto attacks you'd get one extra hit MAYBE, because auto attack does not have a cast time. How are you figuring only 2-3 casts with 6s? I can get 3-4 off easily. Do you have no recovery speed?
    Jarol's and Wail are the two encounter aoes which both have a longer cast time. You can fit one of those plus 1-2 CAs, or if you feel confident about lag, you can use both and no CAs between autoattacks with 6s delay weapons. When fighting 3+ linked mobs, it is absolutely worth using those two spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maergoth View Post
    And with lag, you have to consider that the faster your weapon, the more of your swing is wasted by delaying auto attack (via lag especially). Delaying a 1s delay by .5 seconds means you've lost half an auto attack worth of damage. Delaying a 5 second delay by .5 seconds means you've only lost 10% of an auto attack worth of damage. Maybe that counts as 6s being easier, not better, but I can't help but feel it has to be taken into account.
    That's exactly what I said in my first post, use 6s weapons if you cannot time autoattacks effectively with 4s weapons. You get more room for error. All the extra itemized stats on 4s weapons go to waste if you can't time autoattacks properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maergoth View Post
    Like I said, maybe there's a facet of this that I'm ignoring, or not giving enough value to, but the primary reason 4s delays are used is because of how heavily itemized they are.. and how the best weapons available happen to be 4s delays. I stand by the fact that there is nothing inherently wrong with 6s delays.
    With the exception of procs with 100% proc rate, you are correct. If two weapons have equal stats and ratings but different delays, the damage from them will be equal in the long run. 4s weapons are definitely itemized better, but the reason they are actually better than 6s delays is 100% procs. That's the only advantage to using a shorter delay. Using 2s delays however, of which there might be a few in the expansion, will run risk of delaying autoattacks when using either of our stealth CAs or longer casting abilities that we can easily fit between 4s delays. You would absolutely need capped cast and recovery, and 0 lag to make 2s weapons worth it, and even then it might not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by gahnand View Post
    Ae auto triggers procs?
    Yes, from mainhand only. MA and Flurry do not.

  10. #30
    "That Guy" Maergoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Dirge Question about ability reuse spell reuse and recovery reforging

    I understand what you're saying in theory, but in practice.. it's a very, very small DPS gain. Like, one or two extra damage triggers, which would only be significant on monstrous VCs anyway.

    The benefits of having the flexibility of a 6s delay outweigh it, IMO.

    Not just for timing auto attacks, but for a bunch of other small stuff as well. More attacks means more triggers of damage shields like on Gen`Ra, higher chance that a stifle or stun will interfere with your auto attack, or having to switch targets, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matin View Post
    wow it sickens me to even believe your a person, no human being would say this

    shame on you

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