Miroh

With the video below, Obama can kiss my ass. Yes, a bit old but is still something to think about.



Seriously, you believe we have to answer to the rest of the world? This is our country.

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Deson

While he said it in a high and mighty way, the idea of recognizing our effect and outsized demands on the world is nothing to fear or oppose. We are not burning just U.S. resources and what we do does affect the rest of the world in more ways than just supposed climate control. What his tone does suggest that offends my sensibilities is the moral high ground stance he's attempting to shape. It's like Greenpeace on the environment and PETA on fur, there are right ways to convince people of things and there are "we are right!" ways of presenting things that alienate would be supporters.His appeal to our "better natures" comes across as insulting and condescending and even "elitist" and smug. People who hold such positions, the we need to listen to the world and morally superior, tend to do things while ignoring practicality and make things worse than they otherwise would be.

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Hexus

O Rly? Who is doing anything about China hogging all the natural resources the world is willing to sell them and producing them using technologies from the 1950's? Pollution over there is insane right now, and getting worse at an astounding rate....

Lead-Based Paint aside (yeah right), We're not the worst, we're just the first ones expected to do anything about it, because like us or not, we're still the best country in the world.

-Hexus-

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http://www.genpets.com/index.php

Deson

I'm not even sure why you quoted me just to respond with that and fail to see how China being a fuck-up keeps us from examining ourselves.

China is being chided like everyone else but as you said, everyone expects the so-called best to actually step up to the plate and lead. So far inside U.S. the debate has only been on grounds of moral smugness vs. "We're Americans!"/ "They aren't doing it!" Leaders don't just bitch about the actions of others, they show the way. China is actually looking into green technologies itself, not because of any moral imperative but, because rampant pollution is affecting both the health of its people and the economy. Who are you going to deflect to if China actually makes said changes?

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drychnath

China is being chided? I remember Gore saying in "An Inconvenient truth" how China was on the forefront of developing green solutions to industrial problems. Of course, this was before the lead paint, heparin, and actual measurement of china's pollution growth over the last 10 years. Cutting that growth by 0.5%/year is something, I suppose, but it's still growth.

And if Gore really wanted to "Lead the way" his own consumption would have reduced over the last year, wouldn't it? Shouldn't all of the steps he's supposedly taken over the last few years have reduced his consumptions as well? It Not have grown by 12.5%.

So the REST of us have to take on Gore's initiatives so that he can sit back and hog up more, after all, He and Tipper living in a house alone must really NEED 12 air conditioners. Not to mention all of the carbon emissions required by his private jet flying, when commercial would reduce his carbon footprint. Not to mention the carbon footprint required for his fairly massive security detail of 4-6 cars to get one guy to the airport. Or how much carbon is emitted making the steel for just the STOVE in his house, as large as some people's whole kitchens, just to feed him and Tipper.

Go ahead, tout the hypocrites' message, America will lead the way because it's the right thing to do for America, just not on his artificial timetable of adopting untested/non-working inefficient technologies that will end up being replaced over and again until the right one is found. His way will cause a bigger, more damaging, environmental footprint in scrapped equipment.

I feel that we need to work on actually developing and implementing real solutions, instead of "right now" half assed ones.

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EQ2: Avenger Drychnath Malcherion -AB

Everything is on a great scale upon this continent, the rivers are immense, the climate violent in heat and cold, the prospects magnificent, the thunder and lightning tremendous, the disorders incident to the country make every constitution tremble. Our own blunders here, our misconduct, our losses, our disgraces, our ruin Are On a Great Scale.
-Lord Carlisle

Deson

Since this post has almost nothing to do with what I've posted, I'll just assume you quoted me to make the point on China. China, India and the U.S. are all being chided by Western Europe and Japan for their "lack of enthusiasm" for green technology; you just don't hear it in the U.S. unless some high and mighty Gore/DiCaprio type is preaching about the international community. They don't get that there are other ways to convince the public that don't involved moral highhandedness.

My sole point was and is now that there is nothing wrong with examining ourselves, our consumption patterns and the total impact we have on the world.

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Pryz

I took it as more of a point to address all the overweight mcdonalds eating lazy pieces of shit that leave the AC on 24/7 and water and lights on when not using them rather than the literal message. Makes me glad because he's not afraid to call out the lazy people that while it may not be the direct cause to economic problems, it sure as hell is contributing to it. Would it kill people to live without a state of constant luxury? We lived without it fine before.

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Deson

Jimmy Carter did that and has my eternal respect for it. Obama, based on his history and lack of anything else said on it really, was repeating the virtues of feeling for the world before an environmentalist audience that eats that shit up. Look up the full transcript.

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Illuminator

There this saying I used to see OFTEN in grade school:

"Lack of preparation on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on mine."

I address that same line to politicians: your repeated long-term fuckups better not dare inconvenience me for a second. Don't be flailing your arms like there's a crisis when your dumb stupid ass dragged your feet on nuclear power advances and sat still when Detroit did fucking nothing about fuel efficiency.

Constant luxury was never ever the American Problem. Look at the people who have it best, they many times also worked the hardest up front.

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Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve.

Deson

Actually the people who have it best often inherited it or started off well enough already. Sometimes they even do some things that may be considered illegal or unethical. There are very few self people in the country in the manner you imply.

Politicians in our society are enablers because people don't vote for hard truth tellers. Look at how Carter is eternally derided for encouraging energy independence back in the 70's and even tried to lead by example. Look at how the Truman doctrine was received back in the late 40's-50's. Look at Reagan promising lower taxes but not reducing spending. Compare all three of their post presidential popularity and speak again about political responsibility.Politicians who do the hard job when it needs to be done get fired, check out Kucinich or Clinton when it came to Jocelyn Elders preaching practical sex education.

Democracy, while not the "best" form of government has the best feature of any government-- the people can always look in the mirror for who's to blame.

Edit: Modifier to the point about people who inherited or did otherwise for wealth. Volume and effort expended in work has jack shit to do with wealth. If that were the case, many in the military would be multi-billionaires and a lot of families with two incomes wouldn't be struggling to survive. Effort is not proportional to reward more oft than not and deserve's got nothing to do with it.

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