Otis

Usually not in mixed company, you're right.

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John McMaverick

Hayden

Leave your trust in the enemy to not come over , blame fuel on war ( pre BUSH... NAFTA, Chinese free trade ,etc etc )

America goes broke defending itself ,and the common man whines like they do when in the 90's they DEMANDED defensive cuts to cut costs. YET when it bails them out of something there all for it ...

Wanna bitch about something, bitch about chinese free trade and nafta. fix the big ole economic fubar democrats threw in your lap. Stop American CEOs from shifting our jobs to 4 cent a hour 5 year olds in back hills mylaisia.

Governments that let the people decide how to fight war loose them. wanna end war, then you got to do what it takes to WIN. and not take a candy ass aproach because someones panties might be bunched up. Want suzy,billy,tommy whoever your closest child age relative might be, blown up on the way to school end the war on terror , let them regroup close with and destroy there enemy ( AMERICANS ) ....... Dont think its a reality, look at what happened in terrorist hot spots around the world,when we didnt take the fight to the enemy. those religious, political and idioligical goals they had went to shit when we were in there front yard. Isr. Ireland both had bombing weekly. they have reduced alot. but if we lay there in wait they will happen here . you can not protect a border,that has nothing but a two foot stream on the north, water east and west , and professionally dug tunnels by the drug cartel to the south. To stop it we need info from intel, to get it you need a war. or those tangos will be bedded down waiting to open a can.

Money does you no good when your dead.

(wanted to add. Believing in the paper and what it says ..... laughable. no one checks sources anymore.

And believing a Democrat will protect you ........)

Deson

On the assumption that post was serious:

Defensive cuts post war have always been made good or ill because Americans fundamentally hate war. If it's not a war of vengeance it better not last more than 6 months. As a people , regardless to what we say, we seriously don't like the idea of spending money for a war that may not come when people really are starving etc. today. We also don't like paying our tax money to support it. It was just good sense to cut back on defense in the early 90's because our entire defense structure was built for an enemy that no longer existed.

Free trade was Bi-partisan. It could have been better negotiated however the overall economy has benefited from it and the wealth has been spread around the world bringing millions out of poverty.

While true once war is waged it is mostly out of the public's hands, the public has the right to bitch about obviously failed strategy. After all, those bodies come from somewhere to do those battles. War also does not get you intel, good investment and cultivation of sources does. Part of the purpose of intel is to avoid war in the first place.

Ireland is a land that had a complex ethnicity and occupation problem. Doesn't help that the locals didn't recognize the authority of the occupying power and wanted to reassert their independence. Add in the tense religious disagreement and things went to shit. Not that I have any idea what Ireland, a land that's gotten relative peace through tough negotiation and strong police action has to do with your point. Israel on the other hand, is an artificial nation carved out of an area that had a preexisting population and culture against the will of those on the land and it's neighbors. The resulting nakbah has been a source of tension ever sense with people on both sides exploiting the issue for gain. Israel has a reduced terrorism profile because of some very strong security measures but it's still hardly safe or close to peace. That also has nothing to do with the U.S. in the Middle East now( in our current capacity.

We are not the enemy of terrorists, their own governments are. The reason we get attacked is because we are the worlds biggest interlopers.Rightly or wrongly, the U.S. both directly and through influence is everywhere. When you're trying to take down your government and you see the world's greatest power is backing it, logic dictates you make a plan to get that power to go away. If we pull back they really will leave us alone...for now at least. The only problem with that idea is leaving tens of millions at the mercy of the callously murderous and well, that just doesn't sit well with American ideology.

What's so silly about believing a Dem can protect us?

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Senelin

Politicians don't protect us anyway, and neither does war, unless we're being invaded.

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Hayden

6 months ? war isnt a leveling spree.

25,831 Casualties on Iwo Jima , 6,825 Us Servicemen were Killed in
36 days. This is not a true war, its a joke. Modern day US Military can not fight a true war. our people will not let us. sympathy for the enemy????

It is a war of Vengeance , if you are a American where were you September eleventh Two thousand and One?

Was the First attack on our Nation targeting direct civilians for mass casualties. WW II was Military targets.

Shame is Nafta , Chinese free trade .... has cost the United States 80 percent of our , what was once middle class manufacturing jobs since 1996 .... HURTS the economy pretty bad.

Hmm as far as The United States Marine Corps being built for a enemy that did not exist in 1996 budget cut era . .....

I Am a United States Marine . I spent Five years of my life training to kill terrorists PRE budget cut 1996. almost a year in Mogadishu, about same time frame in the Balkins , and i guess i was aiming my m60 / m 240 golf at ruskies. i swear diferent but your right , we had a Military to fight Russia.

The United States Marine Corps Operated at a FOURTY PERCENT MANPOWER post 1996 in most MoS's for the mission it had to do by LAW, Protect US interests within 24 hours from 4 points of the world not to include other Duty Stations on the CONUS . and man did the BUYING spree for the modern War , COST THE US. when we got rid of shit we owned in first place , because it was a good thing to do in the eyes of the civilian elected Government and Civilians of the CONUS. we didnt have a budget to maintain Tanks weapons , vehicles , BARRACKS , Shoot the m 19 grenade launcher, M duece 50 cal. or any other weapon without severe reduction in training quality.

Ireland and Israel ..... f there political morales and decline. im just stating wanna see what can happen LOOK AT HISTORY.

We ar not a enemy of terrorists?
Ok here is where i get to ask if War on Terror rings a bell?????

Tell that to the United States Service Men and Women, CIA , NSA , FBI , USDHD etc etc etc that they can quit locating closing with and killing, seizing assets etc of terrorists around the world . Not to include Irag or Afghanistan.

As far as them leaving us alone this is a war between the US and Islamic world that started WAY before september 11th... before israel existed. do your homework.

and yes Men and women of this Nation volunteer to serve in the US Armed forces. Unfortunately to many do it for College money and bonuses, and start whinning that they didnt join for this when shit hits the fan.

BUT they take a OATH to DEFEND the Constitution of the United States of America, against all enemies foriegn and domestic. They are no longer Civilians. THAT VOLUNTEERED to go to war. not like the Government said hey come join the boy scouts see the world make a living have good benies after and not pick up a fucking rifle.
SO DONT throw SENDING them over there at me. I Spent to much of my life serving this Country pre and post 9/11 to be told its OK come home , let your brothers die in vain.

Tangoes fucked up, and now the ass kicking is their , we didnt ask for it we are responders.

Osama shoulda researched his strategy.

As Admiral Yamamoto said to Ogata Taketora on January 9, 1942, "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."

Long Live the United States and the War on Terror.

As long as their is a Constitution and Patriotic man Her call will be answered.........

Otis

Thank you for illustrating why grunts belong in the field kicking ass instead of making policy, Marine.

Now kindly turn to and commence the ass kicking.

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John McMaverick

Deson

My point was that Americans have no patience for wars of choice and badly managed ones. Your stats forget that in that case we were avenging a what we considered a cowardly attack by a power we didn't directly want to fight with, in a war we wanted no part of for a cause many Americans could give a shit about. We as Americans are as peace loving as we are vindictive and then as now, we really, really hate war.

Where was I September 11th? Waiting to turn some desert country to glass... actually my exact reaction when I saw it at work was to walk back to my Comms shop and State "Oh shit! Some little desert country is getting turned to glass!" I was just waiting for the messages to start flying across my comms channels after that.Since no person at all besides the usual anti-war fringe says anything about pulling from Afghanistan, i just assumed you meant Iraq as most people do.

NAFTA and Chinese Free-trade are less a big deal than the fact that for decades the U.S. failed to make itself competitive in the world it was trying to create. Free trade is nothing new and neither was the fact that expensive ass pensions were not sustainable business. We failed to build our system into one that could absorb the losses free trade could create, shame on us. Overall however, NAFTA and other Free trade agreements have boosted our overall economy.

The Marine Corps is a rapid response expeditionary force. It's design is to get to any hotspot ASAP and stabilize it, then move on as regular Army holds it. Your prebudget cut size was built to be able to rapidly respond to Soviet incursion world wide and slow if not completely thwart initial Soviet action. That skill set just happens to come in handy when doing missions like the Balkans and Somalia but that still doesn't justify the size we had for an enemy that no longer existed and had no apparent successors.

You named Ireland and Israel for history, I explained them for context.

No, we are not directly an enemy of most of the prominent foreign terrorist groups. What we are to them is an obstacle to their goals of affecting change to their local governments because we just so happen to be everywhere and affect just about every government. Bin Laden's entire point of September 11th was to scare us back home so he could get to the real issues with his own decadent governments. He fucked up though and didn't read his history on how the U.S. takes attacks of any nature.Do your own homework.Almost all foreign terrorist attacks on the U.S. are to get us out of their affairs. From the Islamic Revolution in Iran to Beirut to the first trade center bombings to 9/11, every attack is terrorists saying leave us alone and go the fuck home. Like I said though, the U.S. has this nagging thing about murderous assholes so we just ignore them and trudge on. Yes we are engaged in a worldwide war on terror, yes in principle it's a good idea but that doesn't change the terrorists themselves feeling we are a nuisance they have to get rid of as opposed to real enemies.

I threw nothing at you about service men and women. From my perspective actually in the military at the time, they weren't whining about the war in Afghanistan, or even Iraq. What they were whining about was doing a job they didn't actually sign up to do--peacekeeping. Sure some were whining about actually having to fight but really? Blame the services for treating military recruitment like college recruitment. I watched it, they don't tell you you're joining the military, they sell(sold) the job like it was college with a paycheck and guns. On the off chance they did talk about conflict, they pushed the idea that you'd never see it directly since you'd be in a tank or lobbing mortars/ missiles from miles away. They sold the idea that real war was over and those kids, just like the public at large, ate it up.

You spent your life before it? I spent my life during and after it. Wasting lives is doing unnecessary bullshit in the first place and fucking up what should have been a solid mission. It's not wasting their lives if the leadership isn't committed to doing the job right, it's preventing more from being spent in vain.

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Hayden

I Spent my life Before during and after. Quoting 1996 for date not career

As far as the Marine Corps being a rapid response , true .. Our Tip Of The Spear gets there till the rest arrive.... leave the battle to the army .... not exactly true. 170,000 Marines pre 1996 is not a huge force, but what we need in modern world .... were around 180k active now

numbers are in thousands chk DOD 1960 to 2006

The 2008 Statistical Abstract : Military Personnel and Expenditures

we are still not at strength , another reason we can not fight the war the right way.

Yes we are stretched thin .... but that has to do with the people not foreseeing the future and cutting us back to far.

Deson

I never said leave the battle to the Army, I said move on as in finding other engagements. They did plan in accordance with the future as has essentially unfolded. What was not foreseen was being deployed for massive peacekeeping operations and invasions that suddenly makes the Marine Corps another Army unit. The total failure of civilian leadership to enact sound plans based on a ridiculously ideology of fighting on the cheap does not point to bad future planning, just current utter stupidity. Our forces are stretched then due to improper use and the idea that contractors can do the job of regular military and provide the country the same flexibility that having military in non-combat roles used to.

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Otis

Some more food for thought:

In study, evidence of liberal-bias bias - Los Angeles Times

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John McMaverick