Ily

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Talonis

I have used 'agnostic' to label myself if asked, but as I grow older and older, I find myself losing 'faith' that there is some divine creator out there. I will remain open to an alternative simply because humans are not omnipotent yet, therefore we have to leave ourselves leeway for future developments and discoveries.

Organized religion has evolved into a multi-faceted state of mind. The ultimate science of anti-science, organized religion offers explanation, reason, method, and effect of everything in the conscious and subconscious mind. It provides all a person needs to live a 'good' life. Read the stories of history infused with fiction, read between the lines and find the moral, and ensure you understand the consequences and effects of not getting the point.

They are manuals for living a 'good' life. There are several different versions of the same doctrine, but all require faith to explain away the unexplained. They have become a cumbersome emotional crutch for many that refuse to believe they truly are in control of their own destiny. Free will is real. Nothing is set. If enough people believe they do not possess the free will to cause change, in walks cause and effect to make their fears come to fruition.

Maybe some bearded dude in a flowing gown gave this record player a crank to start it, but it is spinning freely now and each and every one of you have 100% free will to make things different for yourself and potentially for others. There are those that simply exist and unfortunately for them, do not have the biological real chance to change their destiny. They do serve a purpose though. They are an example to those of us that have 100% free will of what could have been for us.

The OP's questions are merely examples of the evolution of organized religion itself. The contradictions in organized religion are left to the information already contained within the books. There aren't any new chapters being written afaik. Preachers must use that tool to put the spin on questions you pose. Organized religion is not a bad concept at all, but zealots will always misconstrue and test the resolve of faith in accomplishing the deeds of free will (human nature?) We may never evolve to the point of explaining everything in our own universe or reality, but I highly doubt it is scripted by someone named God.

You have free will.

Grats.

Illuminator

Saying that there is true Free Will is difficult. Everything in the universe is a math-governed chain reaction of cause-and-effect. And we have very susceptible physical brains that are subject to this, and react and adjust to external stimuli in a process we call "learning". We could say the supernatural soul is who we are, but if that's the case, why are drugs able to regulate our moods and dispositions? How can we have sexual and other preferences that we can't help? Why are some killers able to use a defense of being mentally unstable and that they couldn't fight it?

By this train of thought, saying that there is such a thing as selfless love is also difficult. What can be seen as the abstract as "love" is difficult to defend when you dig deeper to the core and notice that everything a person does is meant as a benefit to oneself. Helping the poor? You're trying to mitigate a degree of feeling guilty or trying to get in good with God or other force for some future benefit. Love your kids? Or maybe you look at them as an extension of yourself that needs preservation. Or maybe by calling them So Damn Cute and giving anything of yourself to protect them, you are unknowingly pitying them and feeling guilty if you don't!

Did God create the universe because He was bored? Did He create humanity because He was lonely?

So self-gain then is always the governing force. What an amazing instinct to delve into. How far deep do you dare to dig?

But truths like this aren't pleasant, and rarely pragmatic for any purpose. Religion is so much easier, besides someone's gotta explain why a bunch of matter formed galaxies in the middle of nowhere.

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Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve.

ForsakenFalcon

[quote=Illuminator;65811] Helping the poor? You're trying to mitigate a degree of feeling guilty or trying to get in good with God or other force for some future benefit. quote]


Our You could realise how fucked up thing's are over there, exsample affrica is actrauly quiet a rich country but the one's whom have the wealth use it for 5 sotry manion's with mass land scape so they can go and blow the head's off endangerd animal's or funding urban warfair.

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Talonis

I know a lot of you hate when people multi-quote respond. Sorry in advance. Illum has some excellent points that deserve individual response so they can be kept in context.

I agree to an extent, but it is the organized religion way to make math and chemical reactions the embodiment of 'God'. We can certainly agree that the definition and scope of 'true free will' is completely and rightfully subjective.

Drugs are tangible chemicals that throw things out of whack (or back into) in the mind; which just happens to be a site governed by electrical and chemical reactions. Possession of the spirit is an oldie and a goodie. It offers a defense/justification for acts originally committed in free will that produced results that go against the beliefs/values of the status quo (i.e. that murderer). It is honestly difficult to discuss this topic and try to keep values and beliefs at arms length for the duration of the conversation. A murderer in one society is a great warrior in another. Again, purely subjective to your value set.

I think the key here is not to question personal motive for an action or belief, but to acknowledge emotion as the voltage that pushes the electrons of free will. Did that make any sense? I kinda like that one.

Self gain, human nature, survival, etc........the collection of emotions that make up our 'souls' and drive our free will. I like the way you think, Illum.

Gori

I know I haven't really delved into my internal machinations when I help someone, and possibly it is because of guilt or something like that, but do I know though I derive "pleasure" from helping other people.

For example, today there was a train derailment near my house. I was on my way home from work (~50 miles away) and stopped at a rest area to relieve myself in case traffic was really bad (an interstate was closed). While I was there I took a couple minutes to let the people I saw know about this derailment and even helped one elderly gentleman figure out the best place to stop for the night. Took all of maybe 3 or four minutes. Why did I do it? I have no idea. Maybe it was some psychological need to feel superior by demonstrating knowledge others didn't have. Maybe it was to seek thanks from a stranger, thereby fulfilling some psychological need to be praised (thanked). All I know is that it made me happy to make him happy.

Wasn't it Kant that dealt with issues such as this in his philosophy? I need to go dig out my old intro to philosophy book. That was the only philosophy class I ever took, but it was pretty interesting.

Regarding Tal's post (forgive me for note multiquoting)
Another thing I remember from my limited liberal arts education was something that William James(?) had said about differentiating between origin and utility, with regards to a literal interpretation of the bible. Although, I don't think he meant as far as ditching religion altogether.

Calthine

Here's War and Peace, and they have the second Epilogue http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/

Warning, I haven't previewed this to even see if that's the essay I'm talking about.


Edit: Here's the Blog of the Divine Nobodies guy: http://divinenobodies.blogspot.com/

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Calthine

EQ2 Allakhazam Senior Community Manager

Gori

Thank you very much Cal.

Triskele

Here is my 2 cents:

My perspective of this... I pondered these very same things for years.

I used to be a faithful church goer for years and I am not now. The church has let me down to many times in life…I sum it up to anything created by man is neither divine nor perfect. They have the idea but IMO it gets skewed in the practice.

I take a little of everything and place it into my perspectives. Just like the saying goes, “There are two sides to a story; somewhere in the middle is the truth”.

I do believe in a “thing” out there beyond us and beyond our reach. I also believe that many seek or believe in something but call it by different names, in the end it is the same thing – it has many names. For the sake of arguments I call it God. That is what is known to me and what I am comfortable calling it.

Some believe that we create our paths on earth before we come. Reason being is that many of us are reincarnated; some are not (a whole another subject).
As we approach each life we learn and grow spiritually, God wants us to.
When we come to this earth we “forget” our paths, but they are set.
Including, but not limited to, everyone we meet in life, our family and the time era we are in.
Yes, even the disabled / handicapped people choose their paths, as do the people / children in 3rd world countries – they have something that they needed from this life that they needed to learn.

Our paths that we write are overlooked and scrutinized by some before we come and discussed with us, as a check point you might say. That is where the saying comes from “You are not given more than you can handle.” We are given free will as a gift from God. It aides us in our growth and face it, we have to make mistakes.

We are not created perfect but each of us has the inner self that knows right and wrong = our soul. In our souls are also the past lives that we have to draw upon and that too helps us in making decisions – free will.

Another thing that should be noted for those that believe this is that you have several “exits” from which you can choose to leave. Those that felt they have accomplished the things they came here for leave. Even those that we have leave us at a child age – there was something that they accomplished in being here.

To further this thought process: you go up the ladder in growth each time you come back to this earth. That is why some are so much wiser than others.

We all have several tasks and goals to complete. Each of us is very different and complex tiered, we are unique. And we are unique every time we come to this earth. It is up to all of us as a collective to take “our paths” and blend them with “all of us” as a whole on this earth also.
Some have quite a hard time with this.

But, each of us can make a difference in the big picture and small ones.

Myself personally – “it’s the little things that matter”, something so small in the grand scheme of things can change something dramatically.

We human beings are favored by God; we are his children and were created for growth.
God does not read your thoughts. some say that's why if you wish to speak to him,
you need to speak your words out loud.
God does not interfere with your free will.
These are “gifts” from him for reasons I listed above.

This earth is a gift from him also for all of us to use on our paths of growth.


Take this for what it's worth: an opinion

Illuminator

Do you believe that to be more liberating than for God to know and respond to all of your thoughts?

And the question of course demands to be asked... what of the mute?

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Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve.