Yelling the Rumbler: What is an Exploit?

RadarX · 03-23-2007, 12:26 PM

Old news right? Not for everyone. Sure it should be buried like that clay cup you made for your mom when you were 3. However, it sits proudly on the mantle for everyone to admire and say how cute it was.

This event brought up some really good questions, many of which remain unanswered. I tried to ask a few...

Yelling the Rumbler: What is an Exploit?

Argyuile · 03-23-2007, 01:15 PM

Interesting article and it addresses the rumbler specifically but it doesn't answer the bigger question of what is and isn't an exploit.

The blood collosus in MIS take forever to kill and don't drop loot so we and everyone else in the universe would just yell them. SoE addressed this along with the rumbler by making everything un yellable. They could also have addressed it by giving them a loot table which IMO would have been a better solution. People don't want to yell mobs that will potentially give loot and thats why having never fought the rumbler pre-nerf I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was broken. No raiding guild in their right minds is going to dump good (or potentially good) raid loot without an overwhelming reason to do so.

RadarX · 03-23-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argyuile

Interesting article and it addresses the rumbler specifically but it doesn't answer the bigger question of what is and isn't an exploit.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make, there really is no answer, but it's a very important question. I've been with raids that yelled the BC in MMIS and I really wasn't happy about it. It wasn't hindering progress, it just took awhile to do.

I think ultimately it comes down to an elementary form of ethics and is one of those things that there really may be no clear cut answer to.

LFG · 03-23-2007, 01:48 PM

I think this is a good and important article, and was well researched and written.

I applaud Radar for writing this in a neutral tone, based on the spirit of what Dymus wrote, and not taking a stance for or against either side in the controversy:

Quote:

Exploits exist in every game. While they may not be clearly defined, it's up to the community to be aware of them and take a stand in what they believe in.

Regarding the above poster who thinks it was unfair for the /yell command to be disabled in MIS based on this situation, well, now you know what SoE intended for the zone.

As is obvious from the /yell command being disabled in MIS, that zone was designed so that you have to kill hard mobs that don't drop loot before you can fight named mobs that do drop loot.

So don't think of this in a way that you are now required to do more than you were previously required to do. Instead, just be happy that you were able to save all that time and extra work from before the zone was fixed to work as intended. You are now only being required to do what was intended to get the benefit, nothing more.

Snark · 03-23-2007, 03:40 PM

My opinion is that most of these "exploits" are a -direct- result of extremely poor design (something anyone could really ask, why the hell did they think this would work?) and offer no reward to the player either way. So personally, I don't find /yelling the rumbler an exploit, or the BC, or yelling and killing contested mayong mistmoore.

If these things would be designed right from the beginning, we wouldn't have to question our own ethics. All of these seem like really obvious design errors, and it really makes me wonder how much time they really invest into making this stuff work before they go into "Live Testing"(aka pay to beta).

I think it comes down to the fact that SOE has higher turnover than my guild, Dissolution, and that really says a lot. People that learn from these mistakes early in development move on to other projects, and newer people are placed in their position, and in this way it is no surprise that we see the same crap over and over.

LFG · 03-23-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snark

If these things would be designed right from the beginning, we wouldn't have to question our own ethics.

100% agreed.

What has surprised me most about this game during the past year is how much drama really just involves the question of what is ethical behavior within the context of a MMOG.

Players shouldn't have to deal with these issues in the first place. It shouldn't take university level classes in ethics and critical thinking to decide what is appropriate behavior when a problematic situation or game mechanic can be handled different ways.

Argyuile · 03-23-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

Regarding the above poster who thinks it was unfair for the /yell command to be disabled in MIS based on this situation, well, now you know what SoE intended for the zone.

I didn't say it was unfair I said there are better solutions like giving them a loot table which would stop people from yelling them or like you and another poster said, designing the encounters correctly in the first place.

The BC's just seem to clearly be time sink mobs, I mean seriously do they ever kill anyone ever? They don't drop any loot. There is no point in their exsistance other than to slow you down.

We never yelled anything in FTH why? Because it could potentially drop loot.

Ariven · 03-23-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argyuile

designing the encounters correctly in the first place.

Just like the old adage "a battle plan never survives the first encounter with the enemy"... I can imagine that a designed MMO game encounter or raid isnt going to survive the first encounter with real live players, en masse, doing their best to beat it... there are many more players than developers (and more than beta testers, if any).. so its logical to assume that they are gonna come up with things that are out of what the developers had considered possible, or likely to be used..

Or heck, they just do things a little different than was tested or expected and bam... its no longer the encounter that was designed...

I think the biggest failure isn't the proper development of the encounter.. but the speed in which they respond to problems.. if something like this crops up, and is a clear violation of how they intended the zone (or a clear indication of a problem)... they should get it dealt with posthaste... not wait and wait and wait as they deal with their regular schedule of releases..

they are very focused at getting their timeline of changes done, and progressing the game development.. but some things just fall by the wayside.. heck, they are just NOW getting around to fixing the spell casting emote for conjurers

Snark · 03-23-2007, 06:09 PM

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On a Cold Dreary Night...

On December 15th, Dissolution of Nektulos zoned into Emerald Halls and began to clear the first floor before encountering the Rumbler. Dissolution had to make a decision, use what could be considered an exploit, or waste 5 hours and eat a 5 day lockout timer?

Two members argued not all methods of defeating the Rumbler had been exhausted, and that bypassing it was an exploit. The raid leader disagreed and argued the content was broken and blocking progress justifying it.

What happened next, would create a drama that only daytime TV could truly appreciate. Dissolution yelled the Rumbler, and all hell broke loose.

I understand you are weaving a dramatization, but it seems you are misrepresenting the situation. It was NPU who first yelled the rumbler to my knowledge(definitely before disso), and it wasn't the raid leader in dissolution who /yelled the rumbler.

LFG · 03-23-2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snark

I understand you are weaving a dramatization, but it seems you are misrepresenting the situation. It was NPU who first yelled the rumbler to my knowledge(definitely before disso), and it wasn't the raid leader in dissolution who /yelled the rumbler.

Note he doesn't say that Dissolution was the first EQ2 guild to yell the Rumbler.

He also doesn't say the raid leader yelled it. Pickme yelled it as I recall, but that doesn't really matter. We all yelled it, the entire guild, by participating based on orders from the guild leader. So he yelled it as much as I or Pickme IMO, it's just that Pickme hit the /y key. But again, Radar doesn't make that assertion in his article, so the point isn't relevant.