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  1. #81
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery View Post
    you still don't show max score
    Max score for a mob is displayed on the scoring details page. Or did you mean something else?
    you still don't show where a mob ranked
    I'm not sure what this means - as in difficulty vs other mobs or something else?

    I added the "first kill value (FKV)" to the summary pages, to show how many points it was worth at time of kill (in orange), then the current depreciated value due to # of kills total (in green).

    I really do want to make this as accurate as possible, feedback is much appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Mecrab

  2. #82
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    Quote Originally Posted by mecrab View Post
    ok, the new scoring is setup, please take a look and see what you think. I'll post formula details on the site also. I think this looks far more reasonable than before. If not, let me know, I'd like to make it as accurate as possible. What's the order of the top 10 guilds as you see them (or top 5 even)?
    I think that's probably where most people see the order for the top four over the course of the tracked zones. 5-9 is harder to value since each of those guilds has had moments where they're hot and moments where they've faded. Right now I'd bet on Dread Army killing a tough progression mob before Fatality, but doesn't mean that they've earned that over the course of time since PoW was released.

    Mob points in relation to each other is much better than how you had it. Still seems kinda weird that when you have 18000+ points the difference between killing something first or second is 1 point. But it still should play out to be an accurate enough reflection as enough time/zones are tracked to keep stability. Takes some consistency over time to climb. Definitely better than it was and far better than guildprogress ever had it.

  3. #83
    Scito te ipsum Slippery's Avatar
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    Quote Originally Posted by mecrab View Post
    Max score for a mob is displayed on the scoring details page. Or did you mean something else?

    I'm not sure what this means - as in difficulty vs other mobs or something else?

    I added the "first kill value (FKV)" to the summary pages, to show how many points it was worth at time of kill (in orange), then the current depreciated value due to # of kills total (in green).

    I really do want to make this as accurate as possible, feedback is much appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Mecrab
    Before I get into values, some things that really need to be shown.

    Where did you rank killing the mob. IE, did you kill the mob first? (and for this, any kills within that window of the first kill before the points start dropping should be illustrated as tied for first, then if 4 guilds killed it during the window the first out of the window would show 5th).
    What is the current max value for the mob. The FKV you have is entirely irrelevant because no one actually has that amount of points. All it show right now is that all the mobs still aren't equal at the start. What this should be is what the current max value of the mob is. IE, how many points off max am I, so someone can see where they are missing points in relation to someone else. That's also relevant because at some point you are going to want to give people the ability to compare guilds. If the current max value of the easy mob is 60.6, and you have that max value, it would display as 60.6/60.6, or 50/60.6 (or in different columns or whatever)

    Did you take time out of the formula?

    My feedback right now would be that it doesn't take time enough into the formula, and that at the end it increments down the max too far. Like if you look at the EM CoE mobs, someone who killed them launch day gets 60 points, and someone who killed them 4 months later gets 50 points. There really isn't much gap there.

    You can then look at Overlord Talan and it looks like it is just dropping it down a single point based on kill order, which seems pretty odd to me.

    To me, the formula seems like it should be relatively simple. The values could of course be tweaked as seen fit. You have two point pools that add up to your total score. Lets say 750 for how many guilds killed and the order in which it was done, and 500 for how long after.

    For the first pool of 750 points, you do two things. First kill is worth 750 points. This one gets a little funnier because it places some import on killing it that first day if a lot guilds do. For every guild that kills it you reduce the max value by say 2%, and the guild will get 2% less points. So the first kill would be worth 750 points. Assuming no one else killed it in the window, the second guild killing it would reduce the max score to 735 (which the first guild would now have) and the second guild would actually get 720.3 (98%). So now a third guild kills it, reducing the max score to 720.3, meaning the first guild has 720.3, the second guild has 705.894, third guild gets 691.77612 (another 2% off the second guilds value) etc on down the line. It will never actually reach 0, but will forever approach it. If there are so many guilds in this game that the number gets to small, you could scale it down at some point. Say after the first 25 guilds bring it down to 1.5%/1.5%, then after the first 50 guilds 1%/1%, after 100 .75%/.75%, etc. This is all based on your initial time window (I don't remember if you went with 24 or 36 hours after the first kill before you start decreasing). If 2 guilds killed it in that initial window and then a third killed it after the first 2 would both be at 720.3 while the third would be at 691.77. Over time the gap will narrow as more guilds kill it and the mob becomes less relevant (you could also start this pool at 1k if you wanted, or just double the time value is likely appropriate, but actual values kind of irrelevant). As far as kills after the initial window and how you point them, it's really up to you. You could do it in 24 hour windows (based on the second the initial window ends) if you want the same day kills to always generally be worth the same (probably good to keep people's frustration of but we killed it 3 seconds later down), or you could just do pure kill order after the initial window.

    To elaborate a little more on the window, you take the initial window, whatever the time is, and say only one guild killed it. After that window ends, the next 24 hour window starts. During that 24 hour window another guild kills it. The third guild doesn't kill it for 70 hours after that, so effectively what happens is it goes the first 24 hours window, see's no one killed it, and rolls over the points, same for the second 24 hour window, and then in the third starts adding up guilds that kill it in that window so it knows how much to decrease in the next window. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well, if you need me to I can use point values.

    The second one is time, which is just as relevant and likely as important. The max value of this shouldn't actually decrease, because this is just as important a representation in my opinion, if not more so, of the mobs actually difficulty. The fact that the max doesn't decrease is why it has a lower initial value, because in the end if you kill something really late this value matters. Same basic premise. Start at 500, initial window worth 500, after the window decrease by say 2.5% (slightly higher because lower initial). The days would then progress down logically, 487.5, 475.3125, 463.43, 451.84, etc. If you wanted to use 750 for kills, you could probably lower this initial to like 375 (1/2 instead of 2/3's).

    That's my opinion on a good scoring system. It's all relative in the percents, so the only arbitrary value is the two starts (which again are relative to each other) and time measurement (which is just a general convention). The value decreases could always be tweaked once you actually see it in action if it seems to large/too small differences. Ideally you want there to be points where it does separate values, or else the order only really changes while one guild has killed something another hasn't.
    Last edited by Slippery; 05-09-2013 at 12:58 PM.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    Let me digest that for a bit and see how it could be implemented.

    Where did you rank killing the mob
    This is shown in the scoring page for each mob. The kill order is displayed there, in order of date/time, first to last.
    Maybe I've misunderstood that part?

    The FKV is what you would have seen had you viewed the scores at the time of the kill, so someone actually did have those scores. The mobs are equal at the start, an unkilled mob is worth 1215 points (calculated), first kill drops it to 1205, and on down as more kills are recorded (the max is really 1205, since nobody gets the 1215)

    How far you are from max score is relative to the #1 score listed in the table, I could expose that on the summary pages too, might be useful to see.

    Did you take time out of the formula?
    Time was removed to simplify the formula, but it can be added back in. Time value really just seperates the scores more. The current scoring still reflect who was first, but doesn't reflect the gap in time between guilds.

    My feedback right now would be that it doesn't take time enough into the formula, and that at the end it increments down the max too far. Like if you look at the EM CoE mobs, someone who killed them launch day gets 60 points, and someone who killed them 4 months later gets 50 points. There really isn't much gap there.
    I tried to keep that gap small once it was trivialized, so that the gap would not exceed the min value of any mob. That would be like adding an extra mob into the mix - nobody would ever get close. The time formula really would be minimal also, keeping both under 50.

    You can then look at Overlord Talan and it looks like it is just dropping it down a single point based on kill order, which seems pretty odd to me.
    It does looks linear, but as soon as another kill is registered, the scores shift down by 10 points across the board, and maintain a 1 point gap between the kills. Only when it reaches trivialization does the gap become .1

    I've got a writeup in the faq with examples and the formula itself FAQ | Everquest II Raid Progression

    I do like the window/multi-pool idea, I need to simulate it to see how different it really is. In theory it should not rank differently, just score with wider gaps. What you are describing is effectively how the current simple formula works, with just one window, and no time factor.

    Many thanks for the thoughtful reply, I want to get this right, and preferably something without the need to tweak any values. I'm going to add another table to show the difficulty level of each mob based on it's current value (rank the mobs), which should point out any glaring problems.

    Mecrab

  5. #85
    Scito te ipsum Slippery's Avatar
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    Most of this is all relative to mouseover/each guilds breakdown

    I think you're misunderstanding what I'm asking for in Max. I might have edited that part in after you read it, but you should be able to see did you get 60.6/60.6? Or was it 60.6/150342? The first kill is an entirely irrelevant value that has no practical meaning, the only value that means anything is what you could actually have gotten.

    Where you rank for a specific mob is also relative and something that should show on your kills, not just a specific mob.

    You want the ability for scores to separate, otherwise the order never really changes (other then when someone has killed something and someone else hasn't, but then as soon as they do it goes back to what it was). Also %'s > arbitrary numbers (like 1 per kill...) because then it relates more value based on when (both relative to others in time and order)
    Last edited by Slippery; 05-09-2013 at 02:11 PM.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    Just me or do the rankings currently start from 2?
    Please give way to the waaaambulance.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: EQ-Raiders.com Launches Guild Progression Website!

    There can only be one! - Thanks for the heads up, it's actually a sql exhaustion bug messing up the ranks. We'll have it fixed shortly. -Mecrab

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