Beef with Spell Consolidation

Steelbadger · 08-17-2007, 08:57 AM

The Following is repost of a post I made on the official forums that I felt needed to be somewhere other than lost in a 4+ page long thread:

The FIRST stated intention from SOE concerning spell consolidation was to reduce "spammyness" This statement was included in SOE's state of the game report here for those that don't want to click stuff here is the important bit:

Chris Kozak (aka Aeralik) said:

Another project that we are working on is to analyze how spells are currently used. It's often the case that many classes end up literally spamming buttons for the duration of combat. We are looking into ways to reduce the feeling that you must always be pressing a button to contribute to the group or raid, and to make individual ability presses feel satisfyingly powerful.

This may sound like a drastic change but rest assured that it isn't. The idea is to keep what you have now although it might take on a slightly different form. Expect more information on this project as we get closer to testing out the first set of classes.
There. We also know from the Fanfaire address that this means consolidating multiple spells into one single spell. They will be organized by similar recast times, this was made known by the EQ2 panel at Fanfaire and brought to my attention by LFG at eq2flames.

LFG said:

I understood one thing in the EQ2 panel at Fanfaire yesterday about game mechanics.

The spells for each class are going to be consolidated, based on similar spell timers. So as a defiler, for example, I will only have one group buff to cast everytime I die rather than 3, as I do now.

I have all my debuffs with similar durations grouped on macro keys now, so I only have to click one macro to cast all my debuffs with a 36 second duration. What spell consolidation will do for me is combine my debuffs with the same duration into a single spell.
He went on to say that heals and wards will not be consolidated, however. Going back to eq2flames we have another statement from Chris Kozak on the subject.

Chris Kozak (aka Aeralik) said:

Lets keep the no votes to the general threads with reasons why you don't want them. Keep these threads more to the specifics of why or perhaps why not spell X and Y are good matches.
Here I will even give you guys some starter examples but I wouldn't call these final at all.
Constriction + Enmesh - similar timed debuffs
Cloaked Assault + Slaughtersault - one powerful AE skill. timer remains the same as cloaked assualt
Villainy line + stances - one self buff either offensive or defensive with the benefits of the villainy line
Spitting Asp + Neck shot - one powerful bow attack

Eviscerate + Jugular - would be bad to merge due to playstyle changes with concealment

Again that is just an example of some things that might happen or might not but this is the kind of post I am looking for in regards to class feedback.

Thus we see that nukes, debuffs and buffs are on the cards for consolidation.

Now, I would like to ask, how does one make each individual button press feel like it is achieving something? By sticking them together? Shouldn't think so. This game is entirely centric on skills, due to the way both meleers and casters work. Casters get approx 100% of their dmg from spells, meleers get approx 75% => 50% of their damage from skills, all crowd control is done with skills, everything. The way that auto-attack works means that it is never in your best interest to not use a skill at any point in time. Because auto-attack queues and will hit despite casting during it you never lose auto-attack as a meleer and casters, well they are doing nothing at all if they are not using skills.

The only way for SOE to reduce spammyness by working in their current direction is by reducing the number of skills enough to physically prohibit us from being able to spam, so that we have periods where we are not doing anything, can't be doing anything. Now that, I would suggest would breed frustration, not enjoyment. When you have to use skills to achieve something you are not going to be happy about being restrained from using them.

If spells are not consolidated to the extent where spamming becomes impossible then the whole operation is fantastically pointless. Spamming = doing something to help the group or raid, if it is possible to spam and spamming is viable as a way of boosting your performance them spamming will be done for as long as is possible. As an assassin what am I doing if I'm not hitting buttons, well, I'm auto-attacking. I don't need to be here to auto-attack, indeed my character does it by himself. When I'm playing everquest it is because I want to do something, not so that I can read my book and click auto-attack for every fight.

So SOE does not want spamming, but auto-attack is hardly rewarding, as long as spamming is possible spamming will be done, people will work out the best order in which to spam things and will be hitting buttons all day long. If spamming is not possible and we are forced to watch our character auto-attack (or worse for mages; just stand there) I'm sure this game will quickly lose its charm

Healers currently have the stimulating job of healing, curing, debuffing and even a little light dps on the side. The fun of healing is working out when you have time to throw in your debuffs or nukes, working out which debuff or nuke would be most useful in this given circumstance. When you are successful, land your debuff and keep your tank alive you are satisfied, no individual button press was what achieved that, it wasn't the game that gave you the feeling, it was the game presenting you with a hurdle and you managing to jump it. That is what is fun. Every class has those feelings, holding aggro, doing dps, every one of those things is a goal for the player, and the game is meant to provide barriers that you, the player, must break to achieve it.

Pressing buttons isn't what gives a sense of achievement, it is when you press those buttons. If I lose buttons through spell consolidation I lose options, I lose flexibility. If my dots are merged into one I lose the ability to put a different dot on each member of a multimob encounter. That avenue is no longer open to me. No longer can a priest put offensive debuffs on the adds and defensive debuffs on the main target. That avenue is no longer open to me.

What is more the hurdles are disappearing, no longer does a priest need to find 10 seconds near the beginning on a fight to land debuffs, they only need 2, and those can be landed while waiting for heals to come back up. If I have my back stabs consolidated I no longer have to worry about how long it might take, if the mob will move while chaining, if I have time before the aoe. Nope, I can just run in, spend 0.5 seconds doing something that would ordinarily take at least 2 and run out. Where is the challenge? Where is the sense of achievement? Oh sure, the new ubernukes may allow you to actually see the mobs health moving, but that is not the enjoyment, the enjoyment is found in how you achieve that result.

I liken this change to playing an FPS, when do you gain the sense of achievement? When you go through the last mission on Very Hard, or when you go through the last mission on Easy with Invincibility cheats turned on?

Personally I enjoy achieving the result myself, not having it handed to me on a platter.

Consolidation brings nothing new, no new skills, no new abilities. It just means that it is easier to achieve your targets and goals, with less work. Like the infinite ammo cheats in FPS games.

Where is the fun in that?

There, that is why I'm against consolidation, it brings nothing new except a loss in the value of achieving something, and it means I can achieve less as I now have fewer options available. PS: Aeralik said:

When I get back to work tomorrow, I will try and work on a more descriptive post and have that up by the end of the week. When I was given this task I immediately knew you guys would freak out and bring up the NGE. Classes are not disappearing though and I am making changes to impact the playstyle as minimally as possible and where things appear to make sense. I know from your perspective it sounds radical but you will not be dropping from 20 some spells to like 5 as some seem to think. Overall I think so far its looking like a nice enhancement to existing abilities rather than a complete overhaul that changes how the class works and plays.

That was posted on Monday of last week, it is now Friday of the following week, where is the post please?

Illuminator · 08-17-2007, 10:39 AM

I believe that presenting an excess of spells/abilities makes otherwise capable and useful players grow lethargic. Similar spells should be consolidated, but reducing spam isn't the reason I'd give for it.

The only real way to reduce spam is to plainly impede the player from using abilities and that will never fly.

Vainamoinen · 08-17-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steelbadger

PS: Aeralik said:

When I get back to work tomorrow, I will try and work on a more descriptive post and have that up by the end of the week.

That was posted on Monday of last week, it is now Friday of the following week, where is the post please?

NB. "try" and the fact that, as responsive as he can be, SOE still signs his paycheques, not you ;-) Maybe the new in-ground pool installation has run into some contracting snags.

Alania · 08-17-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

I believe that presenting an excess of spells/abilities makes otherwise capable and useful players grow lethargic.

How exactly does pressing MORE buttons make someone SLOWER?

Consolidation might work on a few abilities, but in the end, I think it will affect classes in a way that they haven't really fully thought out, like screwing with a fundamental Illusionist AA ability, rendering it impossible to maintain if there aren't enough abilities to cast, or adding extra hate to previously-low-hate abilities by coupling them with agro-grabbing abilities, giving certain classes no way to "turn down" hate while still maintaining some semblance of DPS.

In other words, it removes choices, it puts you in a position to do EXACTLY what everyone else of that class does. Playing a warrior in EQ1, you had 3 buttons besides auto attack. Kick, Bash, Taunt. That's it. It was HORRIDLY boring, and yes, some people did it better than others, but it doesn't make it any less retarded to be sitting there waiting for recasts when the whole feel of this game has been a faster-paced game. To slow it down now does NOTHING but make it "easier" for those who can't keep up.

And its not like people can't just cast slower if they feel they are "spamming" too much. My fury, when I play her, doesn't really spam nearly as much as my illusionist. My pally can get spammy, but only if I lose agro. My necro has longer cast times, but with all the other things she can be doing, there's always a choice on what spell is worth casting, and what would be better to have up for the next fight. Each class, IMHO, is sufficiently different, fresh, new, fun, that I can play all 4 of my characters and NEVER feel like I'm "just spamming", not even on the Illusionist!

Raina · 08-17-2007, 11:13 AM

consolidating spells will not reduce the spamminess imo, its just less you have to spam, but they will still get spammed unless they radically change how combat works. If combat remains as it is currently, you will still spam, just have less to do it with. It would be interesting to know if they are planning a combat revamp in how combat functions because I really dont see the point in spell consolidation on the whole if combat remains as it is now.

Savanja · 08-17-2007, 11:32 AM

As I've mentioned before, I like spamming buttons. If I didn't, I'd set up a macro and push one button.

I'm a big advocate of character individuality, and I'd hate to think that we are moving away from that into more (as Alania pointed out) a taunt--bash--kick way of doing things. I'm guessing that they way I do things on my monk is not equal to how everyone else does it, but it works for me and I like how it works.

Plus I'm old and I resent change.

Meta · 08-17-2007, 11:40 AM

Jesters cap is about to become even more sought after. Expect your local troubadour to mute his ventrillo or have a nervous breakdown! lol.

Prof · 08-17-2007, 11:57 AM

I am against spell consolidation in it's current suggested form for warlock especially, but for casters in general.

The ONLY way I see combat becoming less spam oriented for casters is to give an auto-attack ability on par with melee auto attack. Let the damage be based on your subclass (warlock shoots noxious, wizard shoots elemental, etc...) and the amount of damage is based on your wand/daggers damage rating using int as the dmg modifier instead of strength. The auto-attack would have to be the max range of your farthest reaching spell, and be affected by things such as the troubador spell casting range increaser.
They could then do away with most dots, as our auto-attack is like a constant dot, and without refreshing dots every third cast would reduce combat spam significantly. Special dots would have to remain, such as the warlock aoe dots chaostorm and apocalypse, but this is the only viable solution to combat spam that I can see.

Illuminator · 08-17-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alania

How exactly does pressing MORE buttons make someone SLOWER?

It's actually a well-documented phenomenon known as Choice Paralysis. Again, my view is that consolidation should be done to tighten up the combat interface and make it clearer to a player what s/he is expected to do. Eliminating redundant spells without shortening the recast times of others, in order to impose anti-spam dead time on everyone, isn't the route I endorse. Consolidation is IMO a good idea but I believe Aeralik may have the wrong motive. Either that or he hasn't fully clarified himself yet.

Most of the suggested changes only reduce class spells by 5 or 6 at most and don't necessarily transform any class.

Stinkfinger · 08-17-2007, 12:11 PM

Have you played any other game other then EQ2? I mean role play multi person games?

there is no spell spamming like the amount in eq2, and some of the combat systems and abilities are more advanced.

I will go back to eq1 again. Thats way more a "hard core" game you have 9 spell gems, at one time. the combat system there is better, its harder and it requires more strat and timing.

Less spamming does not mean a dumber easier game. really one can easily make the agreement the opposite is true.

no you don't loose options you don't loss flexibility. Why? cause the buttons you do have become way more valuable and do more when you hit them. Timing matters more now. Mess up and miss hit a button your screwed with the longer timer and power consumption. Really go to eq1 look at the newbie section there is a post there about eq2 vs eq1,,though a week old so you may have to look. Peeps over there are playing eq1 because eq2 combat is "to much button spamming and childlike and to easy"...

I think you just been conditioned by eq2 that somehow spamming buttons means skill..many times less is more,,,,

and i don't think you have to worry you will still be spamming plenty of buttons to keep you busy, I think the goal is something like instead of hitting 105 buttons in one fight you hit 70 for example,,,,,70 buttons still going to keep you busy "doing stuff"