Alts REQUESTED to Join a Raid - Page 3

twoboxer · 10-09-2007, 01:43 PM

This space intentionally left blank.

(I deleted this post after a second reading lol - sorry.)

Mindblade · 10-09-2007, 01:58 PM

Mains should always get first choice. If your taking an alt by request then you should be allowed to bid for your main. The only way any alt should get loot is if no main can use it.

If you are requested to bring an alt, it probably means the usual player is missing that night and/or theres an open recruitment spot waiting to be filled. The alt should be a temporary thing so it doesn't do the guild much good to gear up an alt over mains.

That's how I think of it anyhow.

drychnath · 10-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Since the criteria includes that this request is not a normal activity, then you should be able to bid for the main only, and only if the main is parked at the raid.

If they regularly ask for alts to fill in, then the alts should be considered on loot. In this case, bid on alt, or main, but not both, but the raider should have discretion over which is picked. This is because a raid that regularly brings in alts wants alts that are geared enough to survive. There's no point in bringing an alt in heroic gear to die 21 times just to provide cures that they may or may not be alive to provide.

Snark · 10-09-2007, 02:42 PM

Items should always be given priority to those who will give it the most raid-hours equipped. So, no, your alt shouldn't get shit if someone wants it.

Ninibi · 10-09-2007, 03:21 PM

Every rule you make is going to be customized to your raid force and your own circumstances. Trying to cover everyone under the blanket of one ideology is like saying one raid strat works for everyone... we don't all have the same raid makeups, and we all make adjustments to basic strats according to those differences.

The same applies to rules - and for most of us, the process of ironing out the details is trial and error. The errors usually send someone stomping off in a huff, the trials involve sitting there in officer meetings for 3 hours going over every detail you can think of to cover all ends & be as fair as possible.

At any rate, reading other's situations and input is educational to me, so I'll share our situation in case there are other odd casual/raid guild blends that are going through the same struggles.

Alt bidding rules for HM go:

Mains -eligible (attendance requirements)
Mains - ineligible
Alts
Mute it.

Alts who are there by the player's request fall under these rules.

Alts who are there by raid leader's request are able to bid on either toon.

However, that said, we *prefer* you bid for your main and restrict yourself to class only gear/items that have worked down to alt bidding vs. your alt bidding competitively against a main.

I believe these rules still need fine tuning & currently, I think the final call should be left to leadership's discretion. In our case, leadership discretion means it's discussed by officers and leaders present (we all raid) - they give me (raid leader) final say with raid decisions.

For us, the alt bidding rules being changed started with an officer bringing his multibox toons to help us out. Up to that point, alts were by request only and for fun.

In Shaggir's case, in several circumstances we would not have progressed without his multiboxing, and his 2box "alts" were used so much they were in a limbo between "alt" and "main." He would not bid on items or take items unless nagged excessively due to them being "alts."
So, we made a rule that if you're asked specifically to bring an alt to raids by the raid leader, then you have bidding rights on either toon - main or alt.

The idea behind this rule was to prevent someone getting screwed when they're doing us a favor.

Because this is easily abused, it's not advertised, though it's in our rules. It's rarely invoked & the situations are pretty varied.

1. you're asked to bring your alt regularly/frequently to help out the raid...

EX: our coercer has gone missing, so we're having one of our healers bring her coercer to cover for her on some nights. Currently, this is understood to be a temporary situation.

- if healer loot drops that is an upgrade for her, should she pass and miss out on her main? No.
- if coercer only loot drops, she's the only one, so she gets it.
- if really nice mage loot drops that any mage can use, it becomes a question of her choice whether or not to bid, or pass for another mage. - this is where you run into trouble and sour grapes abound.

In her case, she would pass for a main. But, I'm not sure everyone would think it through in the moment, and that is where leadership discretion should come in.

Is it unfair to the person bringing the alt to pass on great loot for their alt? No, unless they've been asked to shelve their main all together and play that toon indefinitely. In that case, they should have "main" bidding rights as long as they're playing that toon for the guild's behalf. It IS unfair to ask them to pass on gear for their main, when they're playing their alt to help out.

2. The person asks to bring their alt so they can try out raiding, get some AA.

The alt is only eligible after everyone has passed over.

3. The person is asked to bring out their alt once in a blue moon.

- they can bid for their main as normal
- they have a chance at class loot if they're the only one there to loot it.
- they should defer to mains over alts if there's a question & wait for it to go to alt bidding.

Again this is best left to leadership discretion, in the case of the odd situation that defies the rules all together. You think you've got it all figured out, then some situation happens that throws it all out the window.

The best bet in the moment, is to examine the situation as it stands and try to make the best choice for the group at the time and hope that people will understand you're trying to do the right thing.

Leatherneck · 10-10-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tholar

also when an alt can outbid a main, thats just fucking stupid

Not at all. If you NEED me to bring my alt in order to take a mob, that alt damn well better get loot rights since, in all likelihood, you wouldn't be looting shit without it.

Now if I ask to bring my alt, that's a different story. Just because I want to play a wizard tonight instead of what I was actually recruited for, I should anticipate not getting to loot anything.

But if I was recruited to play a wizard, and that's my main character and you want me to forego playing the character I WANT to play in favor of what you NEED me to play, you're going to tell me I don't even get the same shot as everyone else to loot? How is that fair?

You make a request of me to do something for the guild fine, but then not to get the same consideration as the people I'm doing the favor for? Hell no.

Dogmae · 10-10-2007, 05:10 PM

Fuck alts. That is all.

Alania · 10-10-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leatherneck

Not at all. If you NEED me to bring my alt in order to take a mob, that alt damn well better get loot rights since, in all likelihood, you wouldn't be looting shit without it.

Now if I ask to bring my alt, that's a different story. Just because I want to play a wizard tonight instead of what I was actually recruited for, I should anticipate not getting to loot anything.

But if I was recruited to play a wizard, and that's my main character and you want me to forego playing the character I WANT to play in favor of what you NEED me to play, you're going to tell me I don't even get the same shot as everyone else to loot? How is that fair?

You make a request of me to do something for the guild fine, but then not to get the same consideration as the people I'm doing the favor for? Hell no.

No one is saying you shouldn't get ANY loot rights, just that your alt should bid after mains, and if something drops that your main wants, you should be allowed to bid as if you were playing the main.

Leatherneck · 10-10-2007, 06:21 PM

I hear what you're saying. I disagree with it, but that's ok.

However if you think of the guild itself as an entity, it's more advantagous to gear up those alts for a reason.

IF that alt is getting regularly asked to be played above someone's main, well you may as well gear it up as well as someone's main so it can be effective. If I'm playing a Templar half the time even though my main is a Wizard, that Templar should be as eligible as anyone's main for gear.

Pinski · 10-10-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leatherneck

I hear what you're saying. I disagree with it, but that's ok.

However if you think of the guild itself as an entity, it's more advantagous to gear up those alts for a reason.

IF that alt is getting regularly asked to be played above someone's main, well you may as well gear it up as well as someone's main so it can be effective. If I'm playing a Templar half the time even though my main is a Wizard, that Templar should be as eligible as anyone's main for gear.

It's more advantageous to a guild to recruit somebody who will be playing that class full time than to have somebody play an alt every once and a while and get him geared up. That being, if somebody is being played that much as a different class, maybe it's time for a "main" switch.