Saracen

rofl

or option 4. crusader (all attributes of 1,2 and 3)

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ColdRingo6

I tend to agree...class consolidation (/yawn) and itemization stuff (let the whining begin anew), aren't thinking big imo. Change the combat system if you want a serious change to the game. Personally, one of the few things I thought they did well in Vanguard was the combat system, especially in groups where classes could take advantage of weaknesses created by other classes in the group.

Yeah, I know....VG isn't exactly a popular topic, and it would be hell trying to implement that system into EQ2 at this point. The current HO system, though, is almost irrelevant. Maybe find a way to make it matter, even at the group level.

big_fag

I can see how some would see it as punitive, I was more referring to it being a sensible way to manage having a shitton of spells that weren't linear upgrades to eachother ala WoW.

In WoW you can fit most characters into a hotbar and a half to two hotbars. It was a great design choice but admittedly I was disappointed when I found out that you'd learned the majority of your character's spells/moves by level 20. Not all classes were like that of course, Hunters had an EQ2-like number of abilities, stances, auras, and other weird shit. Warlocks were similar even though 50% of it was worthless.

I guess what pisses me off about EQ2 is that every class needs at least four full hotbars, not even counting clicky items or consumables, and every single one of those abilities is usable in the majority of combats. That's not "options," that's "button mashing spam." Which is exactly why EQ2 combat feels so empty -- no matter what class you are, you inevitably spam every move you have whenever it comes up. Fuck, you don't even have to change targets if you're, say, a healer -- just target the mob and you're targetting the guy that has aggro.

Also, what the hell is up with Power consumption in regular, non-raid boss fights? It seems I end every combat with a full mana bar despite all this non-stop spamming. It's unsatisfying and hollow, more like a pillow fight than to-the-death combat. Halving the number of CAs/Spells is fine as long as they double the Power cost and potency of the remaining spells.

I really want to stress again that the biggest, best change they could make to this game is to stop making every class feel like a copy+paste+minor edit of the Archetype. It's offensively clear that, say, a Mage gets one nuke, one unresistable DOT, one root, one encounter nuke, one encounter DoT, one PBAOE spell, one group buff that grants +power and class-specific +resists, one group buff that grants an INT + some other stat buff... etc etc etc. It's unsatisfying, lazily designed, and gay.

big_fag

SKY AM FALLIN CONSOLEDIATION WILL KIL EQ22!!

You're not that dumb (but pretty close). Here's a thought experiment: is the current system actually better than the one you proposed?

In the current system, Class A and Class B both share the role of DPS in group and raid situations (and further, they cannot serve any other role). Solo situations are so trivial that class or role doesn't matter in them.

Class A parses for 1800-2000, maybe more if he's well geared and a good player.

Class B parses for 1000-1500, maybe more if he's well geared and a good player.

Both chose to play a "DPS" Archetype. It's possible both even chose the same subclass in that Archetype. But in the only non-trivial situations in the game, a poor character of Class A outparses or ties the performance of a skilled, knowledgable player of Class B.

IMO, your system is better because there's no room to completely ruin the game by playing a worthless leper just because, say, your friends rolled on one side as opposed to another. Or you preferred the starting zone of one faction to another. Or you just flipped a fucking coin, spent days /played to get to the level cap, and then can't enjoy the content there because, whoops, your class is too worthless to even take up one of 24 raid slots.

Caswydian

First, I find that I actively use about 2 hotbars worth of abilities in a fight, with the rest being used for buffs, items, macros and non-combat abilities like CoQ. Consolidating spells would only really free up maybe half a hotbar for me.

Second, the archetype-based system is partly a legacy of the initial archtype system, and partly a means of assuring that groups can rely on any member of a specific archetype to fill a role. It's not lazy design, it's sensible and group-friendly design. However, you also seem to ignore the very real differences between caster classes - a necromancer plays substantially differently than a wizard, even if they do have a couple of key abilities in common.

Crabbok

Only 2 hotbars? Really? reeeheeeaaallly?

Guess it depends on what you mean by "Actively". I have a hotbar for all Single Target Ca's, then a hotbar for AoE's and Taunts. Then a hotbar for Buffs, then a hotbar for Temps, additionally I have 2 more hotbars which include Clicky's, macro's, and Blessings/Miracles.

So out of my 6 hotbars, I'm using the 1st 2 the most, but I woudl say that I "Actively" use 5 out of the 6, leaving the last one for rare events, like miracles and LoN potions. Even if I only click on my temp buff bar 2 times in a fight I consider that actively.

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Caswydian

That's similar to the way I have things set up, and so i suppose we just have different ideas of 'active'. In an average solo fight for example, I won't use most charms, or potions or other abilities like miracles, nor will I need to recast buffs. Even in group fight, while tanking, I still only use my 2 primary hotbars 90% of the time.


What I find to be causing the hotbar bloat is the increase in abilities granted by AAs and the increased reliance on items, especially potions. I have a single hotbar that consists entirely of potions and other usable items. I have another hotbar solely for permanent buffs.

So what's the solution? I have all these hotbars open for my convenience. I could open my spell book every time I needed to recast a buff, but that's not very efficient, so i opt to assign all those buffs to a hotbar. The same applies to potions, and other out of combat abilities and so on.

Ravanos

so let me get this straight

step 1) Consolidate the classes (for this example we will use the swash/brig)
step 2) give them general names (call them the Rogue class)
step 3) give them AA so you can spec to the classes as the were before (you want to be a swash now you have to spend AA points to be a swashy)

i don't know, does anyone else just see this as very pointless? i mean whats the difference if i have to spend AA points to become a swash or automatically am one as my class.

how about instead we make the devs get off thier asses and demand that each class be revamped to be totally different than another.

big_fag

I only agree with steps 1 and 2. AA shouldn't be where you say I WANT TO BE A SWASH or I WANT TO BE A BRIGAND. I mean, it could be and it would still be better than the current system (as they could pick the best of the subclass trees and you could mix and match, Brigand/Swash could be a title, not a class). But really I'd just prefer to merge the overly similar classes and just totally redo the AA tree as if it were a brand new class.

Also, 24 classes is nearly impossible to balance in itself, and it really gets ugly when there's a subclass with two classes in it which are theoretically supposed to fill the same role, but where one outperforms the other in that role. Classic example is Coercer vs Illusionist.

Illuminator

20-30 expensive masters and 7 pieces of class-specific set gear that won't need to be replaced every time the guild's needs change. And a "betrayal" process that can be avoided. Plus three or four more paragraphs about development and recruitment. I start to feel like a fucking broken record.

If you're the type to shove square pegs through circle holes...

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Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve.