kyros

the only problem that i have with what you're saying is that you're still thinking in terms of an archetypal system where fighter = tank, priest = healer, mage/scout = dps. if the game was going to evolve in the proposed manner, although my merging demonstrated an archetypal structure, it would have to break that mentality.

Edwin Ahe

I got nice idea about priests and how to make them different. Expand belief system to priests, so they choose god they worship and gain substential benefits from it.

We have 6 priests, give each 3 choises and specific abilities with each choise.

Example:

Inquisitor:

Cazic-Thule: debuffs somehow related to fear
Innoruuk: tank buffs (hate related. Inny is prince of hate after all)
Rallos Zek: DD-buffs (i think it`s clear why )

And I mean not that system that is "working" right now, but abilities that realy make difference. Additional skills, or buff for ones we allready have (with nerf if needed)
for example Inquisitors single-target buff (hp +dps): Inny-Inquisitor will get +hate for this buff, Thule-Inquisitor some debuff proc, Zek-Inquisitor additional dps mod or somekind of dd-proc.

Caswydian

The Tank/Healer/DPS/(utility) role assignment is more a product of combat mechanics than the archetypal character class system. So long as you have agro mechanics, you will have tanks who hold agro. Healers are pretty self-evident, and DPS is anyone other than the tank or healers.

kyros

obviously. i was referring to your implication that "fighters" = "tanks" and "priests" = "healers" and that if they were no longer tanks or healers, then there would cease to be classes. monks, for example, could be treated as dps instead of a tank. crusaders as healers. druids as dps. rogues as tanks.

all depends how they construct the options for the class and/or how the player defines the character's role.

Caswydian

Let me clarify: what I am saying is if a 'fighter' can do DPS on par with your traditional 'DPS' classes like scouts, then why even bother with the 'fighter' vs. 'scout' distinction? From there, it's a small step to get rid of class distinctions entirely and use a purely skill/ability based system.

kyros

"fighter" and "scout" are archetype distinctions and i am saying that we should get rid of them. classes, however define a role and a style.

monks punch you in the face.
rogues sneak up and stick a poisoned dagger in your back.
wizards hurl balls of fire at you.
clerics smite you with holy light.
warriors charge you like a rhino.
druids transform into a panther and rip you apart.

eliminating archetypal bias doesn't prevent you from making classes different and interesting.

Prof

Whether you call monks/warriors/crusaders tanks or not is arbitrary as they are the best at taking hits. Until a rogue, cleric, or wizard can mitigate damage as well as a warrior, they will not be chosen to hold aggro on a mob while others beat it down (i.e. tank). Thus warriors will always be tanks, and rogues and wizards will always be dps. As clerics are the only of those 4 classes with heals, guess what, they are healers.
Making classes different and interesting doesn't eliminate the archtype system.

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Crabbok

Well if you allow a wid variety of speccing, (like 3x more AA choices than we currently have AT LEAST), then I think you'd see a HUGE variety in player specs, and CERTAINLY not cookie cutters everywhere.

You might see some cookie cutter specs for raiding, but the truth is that there are alot of folks who do not raid. For those that do raid, there are still many different paths you could take. As a brawler, I might wann go defensive, maybe for soloing easier, or maybe if I am going to tank alot on raids. Maybe i'll go pure DPS, so that I can rival scout dps when my temps are available. Maybe I'll get some utility speccs, so I can Do more brawler type things, like help block hits for the main tank, or improve my Feign Death so that it has some extra effect, or do some spec that gives me better debuffs. There are SOOOO Many possibilities if they just give us loads of AAs.

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Ravanos

I think you can do a lot of things with the classes that would make them unique.

(these ideas are taken from other games)

make a Defiler like the bloodmage from Vanguard, where they have to use thier own HP to heal others and have to use lifedrains to keep themselves replenished.

Make inquisitors like Warrior priests in Warhammer ... where the more damage they do the more they become fanatical. which means the more they heal for. Or give them heal procs off thier attacks as well as minor single target heals

Make conjurors like theurgists (DAOC) where they can summon a constant supply of dumbfire pets that can do various things.

make bruisers like Savages in DAOC ... give them short duration powerful self buffs (things like increased attack speed, damage add or defense) at the cost of thier health.

and yes like i said i know they are from other games ... but this just shows you that there are other idea's for making classes different yet able to do thier job out there.

Talonis

My main purpose for starting this thread and asking if the game itself both needed a large change and could survive one was due to the ongoing discussions around class balance and usefulness and the tired battle of itemization. Class consolidation is a single concept that has been discussed for quite a while and was included as a possible component of large change because the benefits would [arguably] outweigh the drawbacks. As this topic strays toward the pros/cons of consolidation, I think it is more important to keep our eye on the ball.

There is thread after thread discussing and arguing gear. There always has been, always will be. The problem is that gear plays too large of a part in defining the toon as things are now. Combat mechanics favor a single way of playing a class outfitted with specific gear. There are no viable alternatives to counter that one certain configuration. Min/max'ers are proficient experts at finding the one combo to make them optimal. The effort to make 24 flavors of uniqueness resulted in 24 dead ends with a single configuration to do their job well.

The disconnect between a toon with 'X' gear and the encounter they are faced with poses a near impossible task: make the encounter challenging for each of the 24 classes. That order is too tall. As it is, content is [generally speaking] challenging for half the classes, easymode for a quarter, and impossible for the other quarter. Class interdependencies are certainly a needed mechanic, but should never be a requirement. The point should be to make interdependencies a choice that has more than one desireable result. Tweaking gear cannot accomplish any of this. Combat needs to be overhauled, the classes need it too, and one possible means to that ends includes consolidation. Additionally, gear creation could be a less daunting task by needing to satisfy fewer classes, ultimately resulting in more choices for those classes. Leather armor, clerics? Screw that.

I contend most of the persisting problems we quibble about endlessly can be directly attribued to there being too much diversity. Replace armor requirements and remove gear tags. Set armor should be a very special, very rare exception to the rule. The sticky spot is [as always] healer and brawler gear. I don't have an easy solution off the top of my head, but it is just a detail of the bigger picture and can surely be solved. Healing itself isn't really that sexy and for that reason, healers have been somewhat of a hybrid from launch. Mages have fought and clawed to get geared out from the get-go. Perhaps the answer lies there, somewhere.

All that said, I do like this game and don't wish for WoWQ2. I just wanted to field the question to see if those folks that really care for the longevity of this game thought it needed or could endure a large-scale change. The topic isn't dead, but I think we've seen a decent sampling already to conclude some see it is needed and might be able to be done, while others see it as a failure before it is thought out. Both opinions are valued. Make no mistake this thread isn't necessarily for the benefit of us, but to take the temperature of the playerbase for others that read some of the content on this site and potentially spark conversation on the topic where it matters.

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