A Large-Scale Fundamental Change to EQ2 - Page 19

Illuminator · 12-04-2007, 04:22 PM

You could do neat things as a playable clockwork race/class.

Talonis · 12-04-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crabbok

I for one, want to be an OGRE Cyborg Flying Jedi from OuterSpace that summons Trees.

Fixed.

Prof · 12-04-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyros

for the fucking love of god will you read what i said and actually try to comprehend it before you start spouting pointless shit that i've already addressed?

i didn't say that no one should be a tank, or that monks, warriors, and crusaders shouldn't be considered tanks. all i was saying is that there should be freedom for the players to decide how they play their monk, warrior, or crusader. if you want to be a crusader that focuses on support through buffs and heals, then you should be a crusader that focuses on buffs and heals and thus not considered a primary candidate for tanking.

i'm not saying that in the current state of the game that they AREN'T tanks. i'm not a fucking retard. i was just expanding on the ideas someone else had already presented in this thread and explaining my view of how it would be best accomplished.

the problem with the archetype system is that you assume that the only role that a "fighter" can have is to tank, and that is not the case. do they do it best? in the current system, yes. under my proposed system, would a warrior or crusader still make the best tank? yes, if they spec to tank.

Right, you aren't saying that they currently aren't tanks, just that everyone else should be able to be tanks also, and just because they aren't healers now, well that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be healers too if they want to be.

The "aa's for all playstyles" mentality you are proposing leads to a single class that can do everything "if spec'd for it."

That is basically what SWG has turned into. Everyone gets self heals and can buff their potency. Everyone gets defensive skills if they want to spec for them. Everyone can up their dps if they want to spec for that too. And you can't spec fully for one without neglecting the other.

The freedom to choose your playstyle comes when you pick your class. If you want to dps, play a scout or mage. If you want to heal, play a healer. If you want to do a little of this and a little of that, you should know from the start that you will suck at both compared to those specifically desigened to fill each of role seperately. To say, I want to top the heal parses with my Paladin, or I want to top te dps parses with my SK is retarded. You roled a multifunctional class, you are good at a number of things but not great at any one. Or for a healer to complain that their dps sucks, tanks as well, I shed no tears for you as you know your roles are to heal and survive a pounding respectively. This "I want to be consolidated because the toon I have time invested in sucks at the thing I want to do with it 3 years later" crap just needs to stop.
There are mechanics and gear problems for a number of classes, and fixing those shortcomings fixes the classes. Class consolidation with expanded aa paths for each class is melding the unique into the mundane and not the answer.

Ravanos · 12-04-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crabbok

Designing class loot takes more time, Epics take more time. Spell design takes more time.

Designing content for 24 classes takes too long, and is usually always never finished on time, and this content is usually sub-par.

and? I don't care how long it takes, if you're that impatient go play WoW till the new content comes out. I can't wait for epics but i don't care if they are here next week or next month or 6 months from now. I got plenty of shit to do in this game i'm not trying to burn through the content as fast as possible.

you're the one with the problem not the game. sorry i don't have any pity for someone who flys through the content and then whines like a spoiled bitch when theres nothing to do.

Talonis · 12-04-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prof

Right, you aren't saying that they currently aren't tanks, just that everyone else should be able to be tanks also, and just because they aren't healers now, well that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be healers too if they want to be.

The "aa's for all playstyles" mentality you are proposing leads to a single class that can do everything "if spec'd for it."

That is basically what SWG has turned into. Everyone gets self heals and can buff their potency. Everyone gets defensive skills if they want to spec for them. Everyone can up their dps if they want to spec for that too. And you can't spec fully for one without neglecting the other.

The freedom to choose your playstyle comes when you pick your class. If you want to dps, play a scout or mage. If you want to heal, play a healer. If you want to do a little of this and a little of that, you should know from the start that you will suck at both compared to those specifically desigened to fill each of role seperately. To say, I want to top the heal parses with my Paladin, or I want to top te dps parses with my SK is retarded. You roled a multifunctional class, you are good at a number of things but not great at any one. Or for a healer to complain that their dps sucks, tanks as well, I shed no tears for you as you know your roles are to heal and survive a pounding respectively. This "I want to be consolidated because the toon I have time invested in sucks at the thing I want to do with it 3 years later" crap just needs to stop.
There are mechanics and gear problems for a number of classes, and fixing those shortcomings fixes the classes. Class consolidation with expanded aa paths for each class is melding the unique into the mundane and not the answer.

I think you are looking too far to the extreme. In class consolidation that could work, you'd need to work in the general format of what those classes are currently. Sorcerers aren't gonna get heals, no FD for defilers, etc. Work within the pool of abilities the classes currently have, make some skills inherent and some AA spec'able. Get rid of obvious redundancies and make some of the smaller impact abilities available in the lower tiers of AA spec. Some abilities would potentially need to be scrapped altogether to prevent any certain class from the invincible AA spec.

Don't forget combat, encounter design and gear change is woven in with this as well. Discussing consolidation by itself, all other things staying as they are - is leaving out other factors that make this whole idea work (at least in the context I am discussing here in this thread). Consolidation and nothing else is not enough to make this work.

Shackleton1 · 12-04-2007, 05:13 PM

So the reason people want class consolidation is to help with itemisation?

Merging classes won't help. If you want to make itemisation easy, you have to eliminate oddball combinations.

All tank classes will have to be moved to plate (or eliminated).
All healers will have to be moved to leather (or eliminated).
Remove all melee priest AAs.
Rangers will have to be moved to melee dps instead of ranged (or eliminated).

Yep, that would make itemisation nice and easy. But no monks, no clerics (shamans I guess you can get away with sticking them on leather), no rangers, no melee priests.

Merging classes and putting the oddball combinations as AA does not solve the problem (witness melee priests, that's already through AA).

Or they could just properly support the game. I mean, what, itemisation is such a big job that it needs an extra developer? So they should hire another developer.

Dehah · 12-04-2007, 05:17 PM

Class consolidation is a horrible idea. It would require way too much resources to get right, and if they got it right a lot of people would quit because they don't want to have to relearn their class again.

The current balance of things right now is not bad. There are disparities that exist, but if you look at each class forum, it doesn't take long to see a thread or two that have several good and easy suggestions for removing the imbalances. It would take far less resources to implement a few key changes to certain classes to bring them in line with everyone else. This may mean nerfs to some classes, and boosts to others.

I think many people here grossly underestimate the magnitude of work it would require to consolidate classes, and not even everyone who wants class consolidation can agree on how it should be done. I've seen many people say they are for consolidation because they want an ability that the other class has. For example, a bruiser wanting to be consolidated with monk because then they would get tsunami. They want it for a few abilities that the other class has, with out taking into consideration the fact that consolidation would lead to some abilities being removed. The other problem is that consolidating classes would throw the current balance of things completely out the window, and the remaining classes would have to be completely rebalanced which could possibly mean a nerf to that sought after ability that made you want the classes consolidated in the first place. When it comes down to it, I think most people that want class consolidation are suffering from a case of "the grass is greener on the other side", but I could be wrong.

Either way, when you look at the bang for buck and see what we'd get with a complete revamp versus some tweaking, it just doesn't make sense to go the whole revamp route. The balance of the game isn't THAT bad that the whole system needs to be redone. What they should do is assign someone to be constantly monitoring class balance indeffinitely, and to have the authority to make tweaks. It seems to me that these sorts of tweaks are not on the schedule and thus are not prioritized work items that are assigned to devs. I get the impression that some dev's are able to get some changes made but they have to go above and beyond to get them done since it isn't a prioritized work item for them.

I think creating this thread was a good idea though, despite the fact that I don't like the idea. With Gallenite replaced, there is always the worry that new management will bring wild new ideas. By starting a post about a NGE style change and getting a discussion started, it reduces the chance that they'll do something crazey like this.

Crabbok · 12-04-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravanos

and? I don't care how long it takes, if you're that impatient go play WoW till the new content comes out. I can't wait for epics but i don't care if they are here next week or next month or 6 months from now. I got plenty of shit to do in this game i'm not trying to burn through the content as fast as possible.

you're the one with the problem not the game. sorry i don't have any pity for someone who flys through the content and then whines like a spoiled bitch when theres nothing to do.

First off who the fuck are you calling a whiney bitch? Where exactly in my post did I whine? And by content I mean more than just zones, I also mean depth of class, itemization, epics, AA's, etc.

You say you don't care how long it takes, and then follow it up to say that you can't wait for epics, and then follow THAT up by saying that you don't care if they are not here for 6 months.... so which is it?

You just can't face the fact that class consolidation could improve this game.

ColdRingo6 · 12-04-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crabbok

You just can't face the fact that class consolidation could improve this game.

It might. Or, it might fuck things up even more. I don't know, nor does anyone else. At best it's an educated guess, at worst it's just crapping out ideas and hoping they're right.

Personally, I'd rather see a way to make each class valuable AND unique, whether it be in a group, a raid, or a RoK, uh, I mean, solo.

Edwin Ahe · 12-04-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

You just can't face the fact that class consolidation could improve this game.

I just see other facts: that $OE done lu13, that they "revamped" crafting (killing it imho), NGE, Vanguard (not only what they done, but also upcoming changes). $OE has fucked up history, and there is a great chance that no matter how they try, they will fuck up again.