Deson

Can't argue with any of that and if the old EQ2 forums were still avail I'd link a few posts where I said the same.Still, they do have some pretty involved questlines and a few epic quests with decent total stories. Likewise, every expansion has had some city affecting event (though RoK was probably the weakest) and questline that did involve you. It's a hard call though- just how do you make every quest feel personal? or even enough quests?

As for Illuminator, the real question to ask him is what's his point and why does he keep acting like a question posing wise man when his opinions are all over and no one can realistically have a clue what he's getting at. Really, his responses after I asked and he posted can summed up as "I want more story!" something that has little to do with the bend of the thread and " they need to plan better" when they seem to plan just fine but do really lousy jobs of executing and adjusting to reality. On the latter point especially, since he never specified which he was making, he fails to make any form of case on how story boarding may help.

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Illuminator

Seriously.

There are three examples of NPC's actually fucking doing something besides standing at (X, Y, Z) coordinates responding to your Fedex requests. They may seem fabulously corny but it's all I have to work with.

1) You're in Deathfist Citadel and find the condemned orc who wants to escape. He joins your group and fights with you, and you have to keep him from dying en route to the front gate.

2) Fire and Ice, the Sage of Ages suddenly appears in King Drayek's chamber as the dragon Darathar.

3) At the end of the "The D'Vinnian Throne" instance is a painfully short scene where the bitch walks up to the throne as you enter, and announces a champion who will defeat you.

Cinematic content is far from impossible with this game engine, and is vital to promoting depth and purpose in a software RPG. That's what a storyboard is for.

Have you played Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 7, or even Baldur's Gate 1 or 2? What I'm saying here isn't rocket science, but does require you to have a basic background in playing quality software RPG's. Otherwise you will have no clue whatsoever that something vitally core to this genre is missing here.

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Blackburrow.Aleraku - 80/140 Wizard
Blackburrow.Alaedraa - 80/140 Illusionist
Blackburrow.Calandra - 73/91 Paladin
Blackburrow.Cavatina - 80/135 Troubador
Blackburrow.Selanna - 80/140 Warden

Don't vote for Obama.

Wormy

While the comparison of console based or pc based RPGs with MMOs can be made, the correlation is tenuous. Believe me when I say that I understand RPGs of all flavors; I've been involved in the industry at times and have played RPGs since before most posters here were born. I've yet to experience any computer game that makes me say "wow, they totally captured the feel of a good RPG." In fact, 90% of the games miss the "RP" aspects completely.

MMOs sacrifice some of the storyline for the ability to add that RP back into the game. Why? Not everyone can be the heroes and save the world, and you can't write code for a small percentage of the population. So instead we're left with everyday type plotlines where we're a cog, at best. I’m not saying that more can't be done; I'm saying it's harder than it looks, and until you can point to a few MMOs that do it well, the argument that EQII does it poorly must be taken in relative context.

You can surely imagine that the quests you mention (those which include good RPG flavor) are more difficult to write, code, test, debug, etc. than are the less exciting "Now go get me 10 apples" snoozefests. I'd love to see the developers put more time into storyline content... but what does this have to do with class consolidation and itemization? Are you saying that the Devs don’t have time to spend on the cherished aspects of RPGs because the number of classes forces the Devs to spend an exorbitant amount of time on class balance, item creation, etc.?

Wormy

I think Turbine, at times, did a good job in LotRO of creating store-line quests that mesh with the setting’s rich background. Sadly, the background becomes a burden as well as a boon, as the restrictions imposed by the tale’s ubiquitous setting result in a painful lack of creature variety.

Deson

All you're looking for is moving NPC's? What about dialog or inherent lore like found in almost all the HQ's and signature quests? What about the encounter lore embedded deep into pretty much every high-end DoF raid?Hell, that one even covers your itemization tie in complaint.

You're seriously comparing a 1000+ hour game design to a 40+? You're comparing single player games to MMO's and all you have to say is storyboards? You're talking a total genre design change to even begin to touch that. Wormy laid it out and I one-lined it but again how do you get a personal feel in an MMO?

Quoted again because this is so stupid it has to be addressed twice.

Doesn't matter if I played them or not, in this case storyboarding, the tool you referred to as though it were some kind of fix-all, won't even being to touch the core differences between those games and EQ2. Let's not forget those stories had something that EQ2 and MMO's like it don't- an ending. Hell, they even have a point. MMO's however are closer to real life- for every epic moment there are countless mundane to make it stand out. That's caused by a host of factors MMO's simply can't touch right now and storyboards don't even begin to touch them.

And what does any of this have to do with the mechanics discussion this thread was focused on? If you're going to play a wise condescending prick, at least be relevant.

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Caswydian

Cinematic cutscenes have their place in MMOs, for sure, but can get rather annoying if you have to sit through the same 5 minute cut scene each time you want to do an encounter. At worst, you can end up like some Japanese console RPGs, with a half hour of animation for every 10 minutes of gameplay, and even then, every attack, spell or other action has like a 30 second animation associated with it.

If you're going to use cutscenes, keep them fairly short, like under about 15 seconds, or place them in situations where players won't encounter them too often, but will see such scenes as rewards instead of annoyances.

However, I think the real problem is that MMOs take too much of their influence from pen & paper and CRPGs, and thus limit themselves. Instead of looking at what you can do with a massive, multiplayer environment, where thousands of people may co-exist witihin one virtual space, and many thousands more may be accessing that space over the course of a day, you end up with games that attempt to mimic the traditional RPG model of a small group of adventurers going off to ransack some dungeon or kill a dragon. In essence, you get a sort of massive, parallel game, with thousands of people playing the same game without really interacting with one another as residents of a shared world.

Pure virtual worlds like Second Life have taken a different approach, but do not really offer much in terms of gameplay. I think the true next generation of MMOs needs to look at games like Sim City or Civilization for inspiration - place players in a shared world they must create, while facing dangers from disease and failing crops to invasions by hostile races or supernatural creatures.

Player-run cities in SWG were a great start, and it's really a shame that SWG turned out the way it did. The potential is there, however, and we've seen experiments with all the elements needed to make a game like this work, they just need to be brought together in one place.

Davram

The first time going through Throneroom, I thought that the appearance of Mayong Mistmoore and the various Libant servants was nothing less than fantastic. Nice spell effects and dialogue for cinematic effect.

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No Incinerate? GTFO.

methulah

I can't believe we're having a discussion about cinematic gameplay and storylines and character and no-one's brought up Planescape: Torment. Fuck you all. Seriously though, surely... surely Everquest itself is proof that MMOs can give you that knock your fucking socks off "WOW!" feeling that console and other RPGs, especially PNPRPGs give, without the need for scripting and fucking cutscenes.

Fuck off, Illuminator, storyboards won't solve any of your problems. What needs to happen is the feeling of real rewards and real risks. The only time I get really excited while playing is when I've just got a Doom pull. I've waited an hour or two for it, and I know that one fuck up will give the pull to someone else. Rewards are only rewarding if they aren't handed to you, and aren't assured. That's the excitement EQ2 should be going for, not the shitty cinematic that are based on World of Warcraft style and character, because let's face it, that's what we'll see.

Swass

There's like no risk in eq2pvp either. You don't receive anything good except the occasional plat droppers. Who cares if I receive a token from a kill. Where is that risk when playing and at any given moment...that when you die in PvP... you lose armor/jewelry and other player gains it. Who cares even if you can use the armor/jewelry or not. Shit.. you can even make it so when you die like 3-5 times in a row without gaining a kill-- you lose a piece or two of armor, so all the horrible players stop sucking/zerging. Haha.. even if the person uses another account or w/e to remove their death streak penalty... I dunno what to say to you.. but /wrists. GO KILL a FARMER/BOT in the meantime you FOOL.
And as for exiles on eq2pvp, make it so you don't receive/gain a kill/death count when you try to kill another exile. Its not like we receive anything while PvPing anyway.

omfg where is the risk?? zzzzzzzzz

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MaNiaGG

Well then they could make just one class, call it 'adventurer' and we get every skill thru AA?